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Dozer vs CTL

Dan Watrous

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2023
Messages
71
Location
Fresno, CA
We have 40 acres of steep mountain side land at 6000 feet which is 2 miles from the entrance to the giant sequoia trees national park. Logging in the Sequoia National Forest was severely limited in 1988, so we have several old landings and logging roads overgrown with trees. I'm having a grand time clearing roads and landings with a cat 314E excavator, basically diesel enabled tree killing. Will widen roads and make some ditches, eventually make some roads myself. Not planning homes or upgrading the roads with road base, so will need to maintain roads every spring.
I have a $50k budget to get something to grade and rough finish the roads. So, heart wants an old dozer, but head thinks a speedier, younger CTL with bucket or tractor with box scraper could do the job without a blade.
Any advice?
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
9,634
Location
washington
two phases:
Get the trees off all you want to civilize, and bring in heavy iron, either a rental or a contractor to make nice grade with good ditches.
Then buy something and maintain those roads. If phase 1 is done right phase 2 can be handled by any of the above. I hesitate at "Old Dozer" though. Usually ends up broke down in the worst possible spot.
 

Tones

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
4,257
Location
Ubique
Occupation
Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
Younger CTLs have watched old machines and thought, l can do that. Being of a newer generation they require more than a MD to fix em, a shrink is also needed because of someone's use of pronouns.
 

Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
5,021
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
I bought a dozer. It was then I understood the skill level needed to grade with a dozer. I find I can grade well with processed material, native soil with rocks, roots, etc, I find it difficult to smooth it out to the degree you can drive a car or lawnmower fast. My dozer is in my thumbnail picture. My friend Kenny has a near identical machine to mine, he lays an inch of processed topsoil on top of a roughed in lawn smooth as silk. He climbs on mine, grumbles the blade pivots aren't worn enough. Last I knew his had 27,000 on the hour meter.
Kenny now added a large CTL to the fleet with a harley rake. That is a remarkable machine!
 

Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
5,021
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
Road to my land is built up a couple feet higher than the land surrounding. Much of it is steep (10% grade). I find the dozer is great for shaping it, but I've tried a number of ways to perfect the surface. Short of expensive machines, I think a BIG tractor tire makes a great drag tool.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
9,634
Location
washington
If I had Dan's playground of already build roads, landings, and switchbacks, this is how it would go.
I can do pretty good work with a slick bucket on a 14 ton excavator.
I would clear the trees and go way back on landings and switchbacks, making extra space.
It would be driveable when I got done.
Then I would get a contractor up there with skills like @JaredV or the other great blade guys and write a check. They would use that extra space at landings and switchbacks to carry junk away, and tune up the ditches and single pitch it for maximum drainage and minimum ruttage. Work it left and right and shorten up any water runs that eat into roads. I cannot do what they do and would rather have a pro set it up.
Then I would get a nice tractor with an adjustable box and just keep it smooth.
In XX years they would come back and I would write another check. Meanwhile I would be cutting brush back and keeping the space civilized, which is a full time job on a bunch of road like that.
 

pdeal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2025
Messages
45
Location
West Virginia
I have a little experience here. I live in West Virginia. Not as much elevation but steep we got in spades. I used to have an old Case 450 dozer. It was great, it would climb anything it seemed to me. The down side to it was that it had no brakes. I think these are noted for having crappy brakes. I tried to work on them but still not good. Then I got the bright idea to sell the dozer and buy a CTL. I bought a real nice 2014 Takeuchi TL230 with a cab and 400 hrs- a pre emission machine. That thing was horrible on hills and even generally not great in the woods. I have a machine shop and also figured it would be good with forks for rigging since it had pretty good weight capacity. Struck out there too. A skid steer or CTL is not good for rigging since you can't safely get in and out of it in any condition other than forks down on the ground. So if you have the itch to buy something I'd go for the dozer.

I also have a Kubota L39. This is from a family of small TLB's that Kubota sells on their construction side (as opposed to agricultural). This machine has been one of the most versatile machines I have owned. It's very stout for a 7000lb machine, the backhoe is quite a bit heavier duty than the agricultural tractor attachments, It has a skid steer quick attach front bucket, and I have the extra hydraulics so it's good with a grapple. Also it comes with a 3pt hitch that can be pretty easily installed when the bachoe is removed.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
18,167
Location
Canada
A (steel) track loader is another good option. If it has the return-to-dig working makes it much easier to level area's since the bucket will always be set to level. It can be adjusted just where you want it too.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
9,634
Location
washington
Thank you all for the masterplan!!!
It sounds like a fun space there.
I thought about it some more, and would get my own decent blade. If you want roads that is it, the one tool.
You could split your budget for a tractor loader and a blade and have some fixing money left.
But I always wanted a blade and could never justify it. :)

This one splits the budget nicely. Kinda old ish but not an old cat 12
champion 715

This one with snow wings and AWD wants the whole budget :D
https://spokane.craigslist.org/hvo/d/colville-champion-road-grader/7896787283.html

this one wants some money from the neighbor too.
https://greatfalls.craigslist.org/hvo/d/conrad-2008-volvo-970-road-grader/7874441682.html
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
18,167
Location
Canada
If you want the best bang for the buck in an older grader, Champion/Volvo is usually the best bet. A $40K Volvo would be about a $75-80K Cat or $70K JD. Don't think you want an old mechanical Cat. If you go Champion get one preferably with a Cummins engine and 8400 transmission (1984 on) Later 80's had improved clutch material but most earlier machines have had the clutches worked on and upgraded. According to Cutting edge on here Volvo's like to throw codes. Still good graders though. I bought an 86 Champion 730A (articulated) for $15Kcad. Had to put rear tires on it and a couple thousand fixing the clutch slave cylinder but it runs like a top with a Cummins 8.3. Found a ripper for under $1000. Very quiet to operate unlike older models with a 6-71. A $40-$50K Champion should be in pretty good shape and not need much work done to it.
 

CM1995

Administrator
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
16,099
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
A (steel) track loader is another good option. If it has the return-to-dig working makes it much easier to level area's since the bucket will always be set to level. It can be adjusted just where you want it too.

Agree - A nice 953C can be had in the $50K range and fits the bill of a machine that can clear and grade.
 

Dan Watrous

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2023
Messages
71
Location
Fresno, CA
Here is a relatively open patch of cut/fill logging road leading up the side of the hillside to a landing about 300 yards ahead. A lot of accumulated organics to remove. Dad had a dozer for clearing a neighborhood development out of the woods, so may save my pennies. ATVs, dirtbikes and feet are the likely users, maybe 4x4 trucks.
 

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skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
9,634
Location
washington
It is incredible how quickly it grows back.
I worked a firewood landing in 1980. You can only make out the road I built by a subtle change in the overstory. It is totally closed off with windfall now.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
9,634
Location
washington
Here is a relatively open patch of cut/fill logging road leading up the side of the hillside to a landing about 300 yards ahead. A lot of accumulated organics to remove. Dad had a dozer for clearing a neighborhood development out of the woods, so may save my pennies. ATVs, dirtbikes and feet are the likely users, maybe 4x4 trucks.
your excavator?
 

JaredV

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
709
Location
SW WA
How much road do you have? We do a lot of what you're doing, though we are prepping the roads for logging which usually includes adding rock. Depending on the situation, we'll use a dozer, excavator or grader or a combination or all three if it's a big enough job, but the excavator is the main tool. Often the roads haven't been used since the last time it was logged and they're covered in 40 years of organic matter. The excavator is the most versatile but can be the slowest if you're mostly cleaning the road surface off. With a tilting bucket you can put in a nice V-ditch in a narrow right of way and not cut the crown off if you're scraping junk off the road. Or if you can turn the bucket around backward you can do a lot of ditching with a 5' smooth bucket working 90 degrees to the road but it's not as fast. But bucket shape is important if you go the tilting route. I can expand later if you wish. The dozer will ditch and scrape though it's not as fast or clean as a grader but will work in wet conditions. The grader will ditch, scrape and grade the fastest but is limited by ground conditions and can't do a lot about brush unless it's growing close to the road. If you don't have a bank to blow the material over, then you're in for a lot of tedious pushing it down the road or ditch until you do in which case the excavator shines. If the road is overgrown, then the excavator is the ticket. I'd say unless you are building roads you don't really need the dozer and since you already have an excavator, get a tilting bucket first if you have a circuit to run it. Then get a grader, preferably articulating if you feel you need something more.

Even if you are building roads, you can do a lot with your excavator alone and if you have a grader, you can finish it off with it. This summer I built some spurs with a Cat 143H grader because the D6N that was supposed to go to the job was down for repair longer than expected. The excavator, a Cat 316, dug the stumps, cleared the right of way and put in a few of the culverts before he had to move on to the next job and then I cut in the grades down a sidehill. One I had to fill the bottom of the hill to get it down to 15% which would have been faster with the D6 but I got it done. I crowned the subgrade, sloped the banks and cut in the ditches. Then I had to bring a backhoe to put in one culvert that had to wait until the grade was finished. I'm kicking myself for not getting any pictures because it turned out really nice!
Anyways, the upshot is you can get the job done with whatever you end up buying, just might have to approach it differently. Hopefully this gives you something to chew on.
 

JaredV

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
709
Location
SW WA
I should add if you get a dozer, get one with a 6 way blade if you want to ditch and roll material off the road without lots of turning. If you get a grader, get one that can shift the saddle. It greatly increases the versatility for ditching, sloping banks and pushing stuff farther off the road. If you have sharper corners, articulation is really nice especially for ditching.
 

Dan Watrous

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2023
Messages
71
Location
Fresno, CA
Thank you all. I looked but could not find an excavator with a blade. I am looking for a used clean out bucket, so interested in shape and tilt.
I don't think we have a lot of roads, but in 3 years we have only scouted about 1/3 of the 40 acres. Most of the rest is steeper going up to the ridge and very overgrown.
We could make the cabin bathroom functional, but that would bring in more women of the family who are letting us use this as a weekend adventure. This is a playground that lets us do something physical for therapy from our sit-down jobs.
We've got 5 boys in their 30s and my biggest problem is not getting much excavator seat time so they can, hence the thought to buy a dozer to spread the seat time love. The kind of problem you want to have. Bonding with diesel.
 

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