Cat Hydraulic Fluid Alternative

[Nige]

Anyone who has experience working with lubricants for heavy equipment will tell you the same thing. The best use for that UFA spec sheet is punch a hole in the corner, hang it up on the wall in the bog and use it to wipe your *** with.

It's a typical spec sheet for what could be referred to as an "economy brand" oil, (the same as the comparison Shimmy made above regarding Cenex oils - a brand that I warned him off buying at the time) it's full of implications but short on facts. All smoke and mirrors........

What exactly does a table with two columns, one titled "performance summary" and the other full of tick marks actually mean.? That is a rhetorical question BTW. I already know the answer.

In a spec sheet for any major brand oil somewhere there will be one or more, maybe all, of the following unequivocal statements followed by a list of specifications. No ifs, ands, or buts - they will be there......

This product meets or exceeds the requirements of
This product has the following approvals
This product is recommended for use in applications requiring

Economy products may have a place in the market but IMHO a hystat system isn't one of them.

This is my last word on the matter. Dave, you are now on ignore from this point forward.
To quote a famous game show "You are the weakest link. Goodbye."

 

[TEXAS2020]

Nige,
Hi, I was trying to look up the

309-6931: 5 Gallon Hydo Advanced 10 and the Advanced 30 through CAT parts. And it says it has been discontinued. And the Advanced 30 page no longer exisits.​

https://parts.cat.com/en/mustang/product/309-6931

Do you have any idea why it would be discontinued? It is available on different sites but was wondering if there was some problem with it that they figured out that would make it a bad choice now.

I am redoing the cylinders on an older CAT 236 skid steer and wanted to replace all the fluids. I am in Houston, so not really any cold weather.

Or should I just go with one of your suggestions you posted earlier in this thread.

Thanks a lot.

Texas

 

[Nige]

If you really want Cat-branded oil (produced by Mobil AFAIK) then call your Cat dealer and ask. Part Numbers can change for a multitude of reasons, even something such as a package size change. For example 5 gallons vs 20 litres.

For a machine of that age I would simply go with a good quality SAE 10W hydraulic oil.

 

[IceHole]

TorqForce 10W

Not sure why CAT generally specs that vs a hydraulic oil.
In many other skid steers, it specs ISO 32 or 46 oil.

Yes, ExxonMobil makes CAT oil.

 

[TEXAS2020]

Nige, IceHole,

Thanks for the response. I talked to CAT. No explanations on why it is discontinued. They still have the Advanced 10 and 30 for $130.00 per 5 gallon. But only a few of them over an hour away. They said they may be looking for someone else to manufacture it for them. But who knows.

Anyway, I found an alternative at NAPA auto parts that says it it CAT spec.
I was looking mainly for the zinc and it says it has 3 times the zinc. And supposedly for CAT. $109.00 5 Gallon out the door.

But, no real specs that I could compare to all of Nige's. And don't have time to order it and have it shipped in.

NAPA TO-4 Hydraulic Fluid SAE 10W Hydraulic Oil 5 gal​

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NHF85505

Manufacturer

ASG

"NAPA TO-4 Hydraulic Fluid. Specifically engineered for Caterpillar and Komatsu brands, this exceptional fluid boasts three times the zinc content of standard hydraulic products. "

So, not sure it is the best. But it says it meets all the specs for the TO-4. So, Hopefully, this will suffice for now.

Let me know if you disagree with it in some way.

Thanks again.

 

[Nige]

Looking at the spec it’s another smoke and mirrors deal. Long on rhetoric but short on facts. I wouldn’t use it if the machine was mine, might consider using it to light fires with, but don’t let fear stop you.

Don’t you have an oil distributor for one of the major oil brands somewhere close by.?

 

[Shimmy1]

Just going to share a little bit here, had a situation shared with me this winter. Someone had been using what they considered a very good quality hydraulic transmission oil in an excavator. Turns out it has a very good zinc content, but these pumps do not like zinc. It's not a Deere, FWIW.

THERE IS A REASON manufacturers specify a certain oil for a particular machine. As they say, you do you, but me personally have decided I'm using Cat HYDO in anything that requires HYDRAULIC oil, and Komatsu HO56 in the excavator hydraulics. You guys that want to save or can't afford the extra $200 on something as important as oil can pay the price later.

 

[heymccall]

As for the change interval, on my low use machines, a $20 oil sample tells me when the oil is degraded enough to warrant a drop and fill.

 

[Shimmy1]

As for the change interval, on my low use machines, a $20 oil sample tells me when the oil is degraded enough to warrant a drop and fill.

As long as the oil you're using was ever good enough in the first place haha.

 

[heymccall]

I used conoco powerdrive to4 10w in nearly everything.

 

[TEXAS2020]

Hey Nige, Shimmy1, heymccall, icehole,

Yeah, I agree. Not my first choice. Too much rain this morning to install the cylinders, I called CAT this morning again and they said they just got in 300 5 gallons. The guy the day before said he didn't know when they would get more. Guess it is not actually discontinued per CAT website. So, I went and grabbed that for 140.00 and returned the NAPA TO-4.

I asked the guy at NAPA who makes the TO-4 for them and he said WARREN oil. I looked up the specs on the site and it only had this

Warren Oil - Coastal SAE 10 TO-4 Drive Train Oil

Coastal - DRIVELINE - TO-4

www.warrenoil.com

"COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OILS do not contain friction modifiers or viscosity index improvers and CANNOT be used in farm tractors and are not designed to be used in engine crankcases. Typical Characteristics:
COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OIL SAE VISCOSITY GRADE 10 30 50 Gravity, API 29.6 27.6 25.5 Viscosity @ 40 °C, cSt 41 101 248.5 @100 °C, cSt 6.34 11.5 20 @ 100 °F, SUS 191.3 468 1151 @ 210 °F, SUS 47 64.6 98.5 Viscosity Index 102 101 93 Flash Point °F 435 460 500 Copper Strip Corrosion Pass Pass Pass Foam Test Pass Pass Pass Product Code # Bulk 16300 16400 16500 Drum 16312 16412 16512 Pail 16309 16409 165009"

Nige's link to CAT spec on HYDO for compare if you want.

https://www.petersoncat.com/sites/cat/files/downloads/Cat%20TDTO-TMS.pdf

Makes more sense to stick with CAT on this rather than running all over the place. 30 extra dollars.

Thanks everyone for all of your help on this. It is very appreciated.

Texas

 

[Shimmy1]

Hey Nige, Shimmy1, heymccall, icehole,

Yeah, I agree. Not my first choice. Too much rain this morning to install the cylinders, I called CAT this morning again and they said they just got in 300 5 gallons. The guy the day before said he didn't know when they would get more. Guess it is not actually discontinued per CAT website. So, I went and grabbed that for 140.00 and returned the NAPA TO-4.

I asked the guy at NAPA who makes the TO-4 for them and he said WARREN oil. I looked up the specs on the site and it only had this

Warren Oil - Coastal SAE 10 TO-4 Drive Train Oil

Coastal - DRIVELINE - TO-4

www.warrenoil.com

"COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OILS do not contain friction modifiers or viscosity index improvers and CANNOT be used in farm tractors and are not designed to be used in engine crankcases. Typical Characteristics:
COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OIL SAE VISCOSITY GRADE 10 30 50 Gravity, API 29.6 27.6 25.5 Viscosity @ 40 °C, cSt 41 101 248.5 @100 °C, cSt 6.34 11.5 20 @ 100 °F, SUS 191.3 468 1151 @ 210 °F, SUS 47 64.6 98.5 Viscosity Index 102 101 93 Flash Point °F 435 460 500 Copper Strip Corrosion Pass Pass Pass Foam Test Pass Pass Pass Product Code # Bulk 16300 16400 16500 Drum 16312 16412 16512 Pail 16309 16409 165009"

Nige's link to CAT spec on HYDO for compare if you want.

https://www.petersoncat.com/sites/cat/files/downloads/Cat%20TDTO-TMS.pdf

Makes more sense to stick with CAT on this rather than running all over the place. 30 extra dollars.

Thanks everyone for all of your help on this. It is very appreciated.

Texas

Coastal. Pure s#it. Viscosity index barely over 100. Firestarter, nothing more, unless you have a fleet of log splitters.

 

[Coaldust]

That’s the most sketchy, private equity owned, oil blender in North America.

They are still paying for the last Napa hydraulic oil lawsuit. New branding, same oil, new owners.

“$10.85 million class-action settlement was reached regarding Warren-manufactured "303" tractor hydraulic fluid sold under NAPA, Carquest, Coastal, and Lubriguard brands between July 26, 2014, and [2022/2023]. Plaintiffs alleged the fluid was mislabeled, failed to meet manufacturer specs, and caused equipment damage, which the defendants (Warren Oil/NAPA) denied while settling.”

 

[TEXAS2020]

Wow, crazy stuff. They almost tricked me. Thanks Nige, Shimmy1, Coaldust. Glad I found this website.

Glad it rained yesterday. lol

You all have a good day!

 

[Nige]

Let that be a lesson to you, and to others…….
And a cautionary tale to all those people who push off-brand oils for whatever reason.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier that OEM-branded oil is not a necessity. However when shopping for alternatives it is better to stick to the major oil brands. In the TO-4 sector Chevron Torqforce and Conoco Powerdrive have already been mentioned. Let me throw out Mobiltrans HD also. All three are very similar products and you wouldn’t go wrong with any of them, it all depends which one of the aforementioned companies has a distributor close to you.

 

[Coaldust]

I see Chevron just announced their third price increase since the conflict started. Scheduled for mid May at 30%.

XOM is at their third or fourth price increase, but I don’t get their notices or pay much attention.

My oil friends tell me this mess won’t go back to normal until Q1 2027, best case scenario. I would consider consolidating skews, discussing extended oil drain interval's/SOS and carefully forecast inventory for the next 18 months. Stock up is what I’m saying.

Especially, if you run Shell Brotella T6. The Qatar GTL Pearl plant is not coming back online anytime soon. Penzoil Platinum and many of the Euro spec 0w-40’s use Pearl base oil.

The majors are not talking about this because they don’t have to and nobody wants to upset the shareholders. Lube oil is a very small part of the spreadsheet.

 

[Lucykmt]

Hi all, new to the forum but have been following this thread

Our local distributor is selling Sunoco TO-4 Transfluid oil and wanted to share the spec sheet and see what your thoughts are on it. They Also have Philips 66 Powerdrive which I believe is the same as the Conoco. I also have attached the Mobiltrans spec sheet for comparison.

From my look at it, they all seems comparable and not a cheap off brand but would like a second opinion. I only plan on using it for hydro oil in our older Cat machines. Anything geartrain related I get Cat brand TDTO. $1500 for a drum of cat hydro oil irks me.

The prices are getting insane, I priced the Sunoco out a week ago and today when I looked today it had went up $130 per drum. Crazy

Another side question, would there be any issue with running a hydro oil like this in an older cat dozer. We have 2 D7 3Ts and 2 D6 9Us that will be needing hydraulic oil changes. My father said that back in the day they ran a 30W non detergent oil in those systems. Just for the blade lift cylinders pretty much

 

[Nige]

Anything geartrain related I get Cat brand TDTO

I would quite happily use any of the oils you listed above in Cat transmissions. Obviously the viscosity of the oil would have to be appropriate for the application. I don’t have experience of the Sunoco product but I do with both Mobiltrans HD and Conoco Phillips Powerdrive fluid.

I only plan on using it for hydro oil in our older Cat machines

As far as I’m concerned you could use any of the three brands of TO-4 oil in SAE10W viscosity in any Cat hydraulic system, modern or old.

 

[Coaldust]

I don’t know anything about Sunoco, either. I never see their products in the PNW.

 

[IceHole]

That’s the most sketchy, private equity owned, oil blender in North America.

They are still paying for the last Napa hydraulic oil lawsuit. New branding, same oil, new owners.

“$10.85 million class-action settlement was reached regarding Warren-manufactured "303" tractor hydraulic fluid sold under NAPA, Carquest, Coastal, and Lubriguard brands between July 26, 2014, and [2022/2023]. Plaintiffs alleged the fluid was mislabeled, failed to meet manufacturer specs, and caused equipment damage, which the defendants (Warren Oil/NAPA) denied while settling.”

Wasn't it pretty much flush oil?