Barn foundation replacement

[materthegreater]

There's a bit of a back story to this barn foundation that I can explain later. But at this point two walls need to be removed and replaced. The plan is to replace them with concrete blocks. The footings and floor are still in good shape as best as I can tell. The south wall has some cracks but has not pushed in like the west and north walls. It is a walk out style so there is no east wall (which I believe is a contributing factor to the wall failures).









I have dug out these two walls down to the footings. The blocks are 2'x2'x6' so there will be 4 layers of them.

 

[Baxsie]

Very nice. Cool to save an old building.

We rebuilt our old classic barn, at that time, I posted it on a forum that has since collapsed.

Here is a PDF scraped from the internet archive:

https://baxsie.com/images/Barn/Barn_Thread.pdf

 

[Coaldust]

That’s a neat old barn. When was it built?
I ran the numbers, and you need about Pennsylvania Amish Dudes to lift and move it.

Keep us posted.

 

[materthegreater]

Very nice. Cool to save an old building.

We rebuilt our old classic barn, at that time, I posted it on a forum that has since collapsed.

Here is a PDF scraped from the internet archive:

https://baxsie.com/images/Barn/Barn_Thread.pdf

Nice work on your barn!

 

[materthegreater]

That’s a neat old barn. When was it built?
I ran the numbers, and you need about Pennsylvania Amish Dudes to lift and move it.

Keep us posted.

I think 12 or 13, I can't remember. We're going to use 4 Chinese bottle jacks, is that about the equivalent of your Amish friends?

 

[CM1995]

Interesting project.

Don't think I've seen a poured wall fail like that -

From the pic it looks like the footing is intact and hasn't settled? Hard to tell in the picture. The walls I have seen fail are due to differential settlement of the soil under the footings which usually cause vertical cracks.

What do you think the initial failure was? Freeze/thaw or poor concrete mix? Obviously lateral earth forces are the main problem at this point but something else probably caused it.

Cool project - looking forward to the progress.

 

[Coaldust]

Appreciate your failure analysis input.
Concrete is fascinating and I don’t know anything about it.

 

[CM1995]

Appreciate your failure analysis input.
Concrete is fascinating and I don’t know anything about it.

Well my failure analysis combined with $4 will buy you a hot cup of coffee..

 

[bobatack]

When you have the new walls in place then I would suggest backfilling with material that has good drainage ability
If frost/freezing is a thing where the barn is then the freeze/thaw worked thru the wall from inside
So the end result is pushing the wall in with frost
Maybe even throw some insulation against the outside of new walls

 

[skyking1]

He is in frost country and yes, that building would get some special backfill attention with that walkout weak side.

 

[materthegreater]

Yep you guys are right. I'm planning crushed stone backfill for the entire height. If it had been a house with an enclosed and even partially heated basement I don't think this would have happened. Or even 4 walls and backfilled unheated would have been better. Wide open like that allowed the frost to really freeze the ground hard which obviously expanded and pushed on the wall. When water freezes it can exert 30,000 psi.

 

[Willie B]

The open wall needed a few feet of concrete wall each side to support.
9" thick is unusual, wonder where they got the form ties?
Is the floor poured inside the walls to resist inward movement?
Has the look of a pour mixed on site. My father would quote an old builder: "Boss comes around, fivea to one. Boss goes away ninea to one."
I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped pouring at end of day, started anew next day.

 

[Willie B]

Block walls in VT are temporary below ground.

 

[skyking1]

I'd form and pour it, but dang that is a lot of work. For sure put in a lintel beam across the daylight end, an I-beam that keeps the top of those walls at the corners in order. with the bottom doweled into the footing and the top spaced by a big I-beam, it would be stout.

 

[CM1995]

I'd form and pour it, but dang that is a lot of work. For sure put in a lintel beam across the daylight end, an I-beam that keeps the top of those walls at the corners in order. with the bottom doweled into the footing and the top spaced by a big I-beam, it would be stout.

X2.

Mater I've got several lightly used I-beams down here I can let go cheap but the shipping is going to be a bit on the steep side.

On a side note - Why spend so much to replace the foundation on an old barn? Sentimental value, mother in law suite? I could understand if it was the mother in law suite because I'd spend whatever to it took to keep her out of the main house.

 

[Tinkerer]

I predict that you won't have to cut too many, if any rebar when you do the demo of those walls.
When you lay the concrete blocks I would advise you to be real generous with the reinforcing wire.
In my area it is called ladder wire because it looks like a ladder.
Common practice is to lay wire on top of every fourth row.
I would put it on top of every second row.
Don't cut the outer wire when you do the corners. Bend it.
Splice and twist the ones that are cut in the corners. IMHO of course.

 

[skyking1]

X2.

Mater I've got several lightly used I-beams down here I can let go cheap but the shipping is going to be a bit on the steep side.

On a side note - Why spend so much to replace the foundation on an old barn? Sentimental value, mother in law suite? I could understand if it was the mother in law suite because I'd spend whatever to it took to keep her out of the main house.

Look at the permitting and replacement process, the vintage wood, the look. Re-creating that is a huge undertaking.
Slip a new foundation under it and it is better than a new built thing IMO.

 

[CM1995]

Look at the permitting and replacement process, the vintage wood, the look. Re-creating that is a huge undertaking.
Slip a new foundation under it and it is better than a new built thing IMO.

Guess it's a regional thing. I could go to one of the handful of local saw mills for the lumber and with a new build upgrade the windows, doors, etc. Probably wouldn't even permit it..

Interesting project none the less.

 

[materthegreater]

You guys are too funny! This barn is 12 or 13 years old. There's not much vintage about it.

Interesting project.

Don't think I've seen a poured wall fail like that -

From the pic it looks like the footing is intact and hasn't settled? Hard to tell in the picture. The walls I have seen fail are due to differential settlement of the soil under the footings which usually cause vertical cracks.

What do you think the initial failure was? Freeze/thaw or poor concrete mix? Obviously lateral earth forces are the main problem at this point but something else probably caused it.

Cool project - looking forward to the progress.

Yes the footings seem to be intact. I discovered that there is no vertical rebar in the walls above the short pieces that tie the wall to the footing:



That, along with poor backfill material that didn't drain well are the cause of the failure as best as I can tell.

 

[materthegreater]

The open wall needed a few feet of concrete wall each side to support.
9" thick is unusual, wonder where they got the form ties?
Is the floor poured inside the walls to resist inward movement?
Has the look of a pour mixed on site. My father would quote an old builder: "Boss comes around, fivea to one. Boss goes away ninea to one."
I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped pouring at end of day, started anew next day.

Yes it probably would have helped the corner stay in place if it had had a short return wall. The wall itself isn't 9" thick, just the end of the wall where they capped the end of the forms. The rest of the wall is 8" thick. The floor is poured inside the walls. It was not mixed on site, but delivered by Carroll concrete. If I remember correctly, the walls were all poured in one day.