Are new machines too complex?

[Welder Dave]

I've been reading some threads on newer machines that are basically ran by computers and it includes just about all functions including the bucket tilt on loaders. A wire breaks or a connection gets corroded and you can't roll the bucket. A lot of new machines also have joystick controls. Great until they quit working. Is all this new technology worth it and does it give more production or would you rather have simpler machines a few years older? I know GPS is a game changer but on something like a wheel loader does having the hydraulics controlled by electronics really increase production that much? I know hydrostatic drive is way faster on track loaders but you still drive into the pile and roll the bucket back the same. Why complicate what already works good? I don't think you'll see many new machines today still working on farms and private lands 30 or 40 years in the future like you see with machines made even going back to the 60's.

 

[pumkinhead]

i agree that machines are becoming to complex but electric over hydraulic controls do add user customization that is not possible with pilot systems and if a pilot hose blows you're still not rolling the bucket back.

 

[HarleyHappy]

It will be like the Chevelle, Camaro’s and Mustangs.
Back in our day, there were scores of cars you wanted to fix up and just cruise in. Now, with what they are making, there isn’t a car or truck made in the last 30 years, that most people would look at twice.
I will admit, running the older machines requires more muscle and thought.
The new machines do run sweet, just too much reliability on electronics and such. Sooner or later they will be more adept.
Then you have loaders with 8k hours that look like new.
The old ways of operation are over.
Nobody is banging and clanging in a 150k machine.
When I had my basement dug, they got into a teeny bit of ledge and it was mostly rotten.
They had to wait 4 days for their hammer to show up, I was like just rip it out. Nope, no scratching with the new machine.
Every morning, machine would start up 1/2 hour before they showed up, it was remote start and it would warm itself up.
Kinda cool though.

 

[1466IH]

I hear a lot of operators complain about drive by wire instead of pilot joysticks. They say you can't feel as much with wire when trying to perform finish work. Customer had an 850 Deere dozer that was eating alternators and at least 2 sets of batteries per year. After the last go around of 2 sets in 1 week and going dead again they called me to come look and see what I could come up with. Everything seemed fine with the batteries and the alternator but after checking schematics and reading through the theory section I noticed they no longer have regulators in the alternators because they are controlled by the ECM. Checked everything i could there and wound up having to install a new ECM because it was not telling the alternator to charge. Something as simple as a blower motor is about 6 times the cost because there is now a circuit board instead of resistor. I attribute it to the fact that engineers have to prove that they are needed and come up with new complicated ways of accomplishing tried and true methods that have been working for decades. How many different types of freaking electrical connectors are needed. What was wrong with weatherpak and deutsch connectors? It is ridiculous to have to keep stock of all this crap now days. Sorry, end rant but I do miss simpler times

 

[treemuncher]

I would like to B-slap the idiot engineer that wrote the code for my tracked mulcher that runs on electronically controlled hydraulics. What knowledgable operating engineer would ever speed up the outside track to make a turn? What a great way to lose all fine travel control. I thought about re-writing the code myself but the chances of making a mistake and the time required to re-learn programming make me have to deal with this daily. He should be tarred & feathered for such stupidity.

I do NOT own anything off road that requires DEF. These computers are helpful to a point but I really appreciate basic, easy to repair, less conveluted systems. If I can not keep it going myself, I really do not want to own it. Thankfully, there is YouTube to help with my newer vehicles.

 

[LCA078]

I don't think you'll see many new machines today still working on farms and private lands 30 or 40 years in the future like you see with machines made even going back to the 60's.

I don't think so either. We've gone past, waaaayyy past, the ability for typical person with reasonable intelligence to comprehend today's computer controlled systems without special tools or training. Toss on top that it will be practically impossible to find the electronic parts, sensors, and chips needed to repair today's machines in 25 years or so in the future. These issues almost guarantees machines will be found in the scrapyard more than being repaired and used by folks like me (someone who isn't trying to make money with his tools). Is it this the master grand plan of the OEMs? Or are the OEMs truly trying to squeeze maximum productivity and efficiency out of today's designs? I have no idea...

 

[92U 3406]

Change for change sake.

 

[Truck Shop]

The more complicated the more reliance on dealer oem repairs, it's all thought out
on the 40th floor. It's about selling a vast inventory of replacement parts, yes money
is made on the initial new sale, big money is oem replacement parts. I'll use Cummins
as a example--a complete replacement engine-lets say $55K, if all individual parts and
pieces were bought to assemble one the price would be $125K plus. Electrical is no
different except it's one piece one area repaired at a time, they know it and they've
got you. Are you really gaining by using mass electronics? Some do some don't, when
it's broke down waiting for high tech parts-it's easy for the owner to look back at
simpler days and think {If I had my old machine I would still be operating-it's all 20/20}.

 

[cuttin edge]

I don't like fly by wire, but the technology is there to give the control feedback. Jet fighters have been doing it for years. One think I hate about electronic controls is not being able to shake a bucket to clean it out. My Mauldin grader has no feel to it. If I am loading sticky material on one of the older machines, I can shake the material out. The newer one, just slowly moves up and down. Our new 966 Cat as an auto dig feature. I guess with electronic controls, you are keeping hot hydraulics out of the cab. Maybe they are paving the way for AI to take over operator jobs? Komatsu had a demo once of a completely operator free jobsite. Controlled by drones and GPS. Probably cut down on the complaining a lot

 

[pumkinhead]

I might be an outlier here but i much rather work on an electric over hydraulic system on an excavator especially if its a power complaint, much easier to diagnose pumps with electric regulators 90% of the time for me. and can usually make operators happy by adjusting priority's and or sensitivity/gain

 

[chidog]

Feed back ? That is how the machine is feeling, I've never needed that in the control stick.
I once got to pilot a small helicopter, zero feed back, move that stick 1/16 of an inch and wow, crazy touchy, that was like moving it a foot or more.
When running new excavators back about maybe 15 years ago, I really wanted that amount of movement to be full throw on the sticks, but not on a dozer. If electrics can be adjusted to do that I would like that. The biggest problem with electric is rodents, hunting for broken wires, hunting for corroded connections etc. Equipment is a harsh environment for electrics. All the components and wiring need to be made super easy to access and not routed in crazy places.

 

[cuttin edge]

Feed back. When I pull the control, I can feel the spool opening and I can tell exactly when something is going to happen. The F16 was the first fighter that was fly by wire. Pilots complained that there was no feeling in the stick. Feed back was introduced so they could feel the air moving over the flight control surfaces. I move the stick, or toggle the switch on my little grader, nothing. I move it until something starts to happen. Even cable or linkage, as a weight or pressure to it.

 

[Welder Dave]

First plane with fly-by-wire other than experimental aircraft was the Avro Arrow. Chief test pilot commented it had good feed back to control movements. Pretty much need fly-by-wire in supersonic aircraft. The Arrow was also the first plane to have 4000 PSI hydraulics.

 

[sfrs4]

Farming is the same, when I first started out on the family farm manual 10 speed gearboxes, manual hydraulics and a big foot lever to operate the diff lock where what you had, when I finished full time farming some twenty years ago tractors had shuttle gearbox's, electronic controlled hydraulics, diff locks etc, the other day I jumped in a friends new Fendt, I looked round and got out, sod that for a game, there were more screens than I have in my front room. All this tech does make the job a bit easier, but at huge costs, tractors that were £20-30K are now £100-120K and as soon as it chucks up a fault code its useless until a " Tech" can get out to it,

 

[LCA078]

Regarding feedback, do operators prefer feedback in way that the controls transmit a portion of the attachment force back to you so you "feel" how hard the bucket is digging? Or do you mean you want more friction or spring force built into the control system so it requires a bit more deliberate effort to move the control? I was not aware that pilot controlled systems provided feedback so trying to understand more of this.

 

[cuttin edge]

First plane with fly-by-wire other than experimental aircraft was the Avro Arrow. Chief test pilot commented it had good feed back to control movements. Pretty much need fly-by-wire in supersonic aircraft. The Arrow was also the first plane to have 4000 PSI hydraulics.

Was was was. It was never put into production, and would have been obsolete before it began it's intercepter roll. It was ruined by politics as was the rest of the Canadian military. I can't believe the people on social media calling for it's return. It's done and over with. We are committed to the 16 or 17 F35s, they have already invested in infrastructure and training on the F35. Lockheed has promised investments in Canada. Buy the rest of the fighters and be done with it. It would be just like Ottawa to waste a bunch of money buying some Euro fighter, and have to invest in more infrastructure and training for a totally different platform.

Regarding feedback, do operators prefer feedback in way that the controls transmit a portion of the attachment force back to you so you "feel" how hard the bucket is digging? Or do you mean you want more friction or spring force built into the control system so it requires a bit more deliberate effort to move the control? I was not aware that pilot controlled systems provided feedback so trying to understand more of this.

Moving the controls on some wire controlled machines has no feeling, Even with pilot controls, there is a feeling of things starting to happen. Not a pressure, just a feeling in the control that fluid is starting to move. Wire control feels the same if the machine was turned off. Maybe is a personal preference. Like slowly squeezing the garden hose nozzle

 

[Acoals]

I believe there are two basic reasons why everything is electronically controlled.

1) Cost of manufacture. Electronics are simply cheaper and simpler to manufacture than linkages, pilot systems, ect.
2) The ability to incoporate telematics and other robotic or otherwise non human control.

95% of the stuff machanics hate of a machine or vehicle is driven by one of three factors:

1) Cost of manufacturing; have to keep the shareholders happy.
2) Government regulation; Uncle Sam MUST be happy.
3) Customer or competition demanded performance.

Add the three above factors up and you get a machine that is ten feet long, has a cab squezed in between the loader arms, with the operator sitting six inches away from a DPF running at 3000 degrees that is cleaning the exhaust from a 110hp engine that is stuffed into a area of about 4 cubic feet. And a whole bunch of chincy plastic surrounding a screen that controls everything the two joystics don't.

 

[HarleyHappy]

On HD’s when they went to the Throttle by Wire, most people hated them as it was very hard to feather the throttle and the clutch to find the friction zone. Then they went to hydraulic clutches to really screw the pooch.
Then you had no adjustment at all. Aftermarket companies are making bank on retrofits.
I can’t stand a hydraulic clutch and won’t own a machine with one.
TBW is tolerable.

 

[Truck Shop]

I believe there are two basic reasons why everything is electronically controlled.

And most of it belongs to standardization. Years ago options were long lists on certain types
of vehicles. But options became a thing of the past because for the manufacture it made more
sense to automatically incorporate it into every vehicle. A/C no one wants a car without it, not
so 35 years ago, same with power windows. By only offering power windows they rid themselves
of manufacturing, stocking & having a change up on the assembly line, plus electric windows
were a luxury and had a luxury price. So not only do they save tons by only having one model
of windows the price stayed the same. My 06 ranger has manual windows-not many vehicles
these days built that way.

 

[Truck Shop]

It isn't Burger King--you don't get it your way.