So, when is a machine deemed too old to be repairable? I am finding out that some, if not all, equipment dealers are putting limits on how long to make parts available. I realize there have to be limits to what manufacturers and dealers can/should do in this respect, yet what are we contractors supposed to do? The mindset is twofold. One, this will require contractors to keep equipment updated by being required to buy newer equipment, and two, the cost of keeping parts for the volumes of machines/models could be prohibitive. Yet, as with myself, many cannot afford to invest a couple of million in equipment as a smaller contractor. Also, many of these "older" machines are still very productive and solid. Just a thot from a dirt and drainage guy......
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when is a machine too "old"?
- Thread starter tdrainage
- Start date
RoadMan1775
Member
In some places the EPA gets to decide what is too old.
old-iron-habit
Senior Member
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- Moose Lake, MN
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If you are an old iron nut like me, never. But then, my livelihood does not depend on them.
I was the voice of doom and gloom back in the late 80's and all through the 90's as we began to see electronics become totally integrated into engine, pump, transmission control systems. I got laughed at a lot, but CAT especially has made millions providing spares to the secondary and even third and fourth level markets. In my area there are many D9G's and 988B's working in rock pits and such, the owners love them and consider them in many ways superior to the latest and greatest. Farmers and loggers love to buy used machines and keep them running for decades as a useful part of their operations.
So.... what do we tell the guy that bought that nice 10 or 15 year old dozer or loader at an auction when he discovers it was sold because one of the computer modules which is no longer available anywhere goes south when it gets hot, or the main wiring harness has some untraceable fault or faulty plug connector and the manufacturer has gone out of business? Metal parts can be made, or substituted, there's usually a way. With limited populations and no access to the specifications and software, who will bother to manufacture replacement ECM's and PCM's, and TCM's and etc.???
I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but we already have numerous stories of manufacturers going under or merging, or buying certain models from another manufacturer under contract and then obsoleting those models, making them orphan children. The more technical machines become, the higher the performance, the higher the hydraulic pressures, the more special the mettalurgy, the more buyers would be wise to either buy from the biggest most established manufacturers or hold on to the reliable and lovable old machines we can still repair without needing an EE and an internet connection to plug into.
Don't get me wrong, I love technology.... when it works. But the more complex you make any machine, the more likely it is to develop multiple faults, and error codes may show up that lead you far astray from what is really happening.
Cheers,
:soapbox
So.... what do we tell the guy that bought that nice 10 or 15 year old dozer or loader at an auction when he discovers it was sold because one of the computer modules which is no longer available anywhere goes south when it gets hot, or the main wiring harness has some untraceable fault or faulty plug connector and the manufacturer has gone out of business? Metal parts can be made, or substituted, there's usually a way. With limited populations and no access to the specifications and software, who will bother to manufacture replacement ECM's and PCM's, and TCM's and etc.???
I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but we already have numerous stories of manufacturers going under or merging, or buying certain models from another manufacturer under contract and then obsoleting those models, making them orphan children. The more technical machines become, the higher the performance, the higher the hydraulic pressures, the more special the mettalurgy, the more buyers would be wise to either buy from the biggest most established manufacturers or hold on to the reliable and lovable old machines we can still repair without needing an EE and an internet connection to plug into.
Don't get me wrong, I love technology.... when it works. But the more complex you make any machine, the more likely it is to develop multiple faults, and error codes may show up that lead you far astray from what is really happening.
Cheers,
:soapbox
8k bill
Well-Known Member
I could'nt agree with you more lantraxco, that's why any machine with halve decent hours pre computers and tec still bring good money,in some cases what you paid for them. At least you can fix em with a roll of spanners and couple of screwdrivers. Bill.
stumpjumper83
Senior Member
In some cases your clients dictate the age of your iron. For some of the gas well work they wanted to see nothing older than 5 years if I remember right. Personally its more of a decision on what shape the machine is in and what I need it to do. Sometimes its hard to justify late model iron for something that you don't use a lot but either cannot rent or cannot afford to rent, so you keep an old b*****d behind the barn for when you need it.
kshansen
Senior Member
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- Central New York, USA
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That is so true. Our company put some old Cat 966C's on Iron Planet auction a year or so back, some with no tires, missing hyd. cylinders, engines partialy dissassembled sitting out in the weeds. I think the worst looking pile of what I would have thought of a scrap iron went for over $5,000. I can recall years ago we almost had to give away good running 966C's to local guy who used them for plowing snow in shopping malls.
It's the age of the internet. Back when you advertised in the local newspaper classifieds you just didn't get much action. Now the used parts yards can connect with anyone on the planet that needs a lift cylinder or steering gear for an old dinosaur machine, so the value of those "retired" machines actually has gone up because of the ability to connect with the market.
Buckethead
Senior Member
Five years? I think that's ridiculous. Some old machines have less downtime, for the reasons Lantraxco explained above.
stumpjumper83
Senior Member
Oh, I agree that its totally riduclous. While you always have shiny in the yard, the new stuff has more down time, and all the payments keep the profit down. That and with older stuff you can tell what kinda of contractor he is by his iron.
Lantraxco, you took the words right out of my mouth, I've been saying the same thing for decades as well, as for being too old, I'm thinking more like, can being too new be worse than too old?
I know emissions are a big thing for computers, but some of this is ridiculous for electronics. I could type pages of problems I know of my customers have encountered with new equipment, from dozers, to combines, sprayers, tractors, pickups, you name it, they're all plagued with issues and headaches. I've asked for a long time, what is going to be left of those machines in twenty years, well we're finding out, nobody wants them, but good older models still can't be bought at any price, or are sold days before they are traded in, there's a waiting list from customers waiting and wanting the just before those computer generation machines, no matter what type it is, make or model.
I know emissions are a big thing for computers, but some of this is ridiculous for electronics. I could type pages of problems I know of my customers have encountered with new equipment, from dozers, to combines, sprayers, tractors, pickups, you name it, they're all plagued with issues and headaches. I've asked for a long time, what is going to be left of those machines in twenty years, well we're finding out, nobody wants them, but good older models still can't be bought at any price, or are sold days before they are traded in, there's a waiting list from customers waiting and wanting the just before those computer generation machines, no matter what type it is, make or model.
A machine becomes to old after the owner looses interest in using it and it falls into disrepair .
Then I show up & write the owner a check , hauler home & repair faults then put it back on a job .
I hate the idea of circuit boards & computers telling equipment what to do .
Then I show up & write the owner a check , hauler home & repair faults then put it back on a job .
I hate the idea of circuit boards & computers telling equipment what to do .
Lee (MN)
Well-Known Member
The company I work for runs older equipment, if you maintain it and take care of it it will take care of you. For example we run a D9N and a D9R. The 9R has 39,000 frame hours, and has been maintained properly and will push alongside any other D9, no computer issues at all, and the guy that sine's my paycheck loves it!. The D9R, New by our standards is a good tractor but all it takes is a meaningless code to pop up and the downtime starts. The boss does not like that!....................We live in a disposable world now, the days of running a crawler crane for 40-50 years are over and the cost of replacing an ECM or PCM will decide the fate of a decent looking machine.
MHO, Lee
MHO, Lee
rsherril
Senior Member
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I noticed that during the last great bust here in the oil patch that much of the heavy iron used to build roads and drill pads was returned to the leasers. These were all relative new machines. The oil and gas boys had deep pockets and were paying the big bucks to get the job done. Result was the cost of the wells skyrocketed, but that wasn't much of a problem for them for about five years. When the slow down came, a lot of that equipment ended up back at the dealer and then to the auction block.
It simply made more sense to lease and let them fix it rather than invest in a shop and support equipment. Of course these methods didn't last forever, but for those that got in early it seemed to work well. All about timing I guess.
As my machines approach their 35th birthdays, I often think about how nice a joy stick and well designed operator station would be. Then I think about how much I would have to work them to make the payments. Much better for me to just worry about how to keep them running and dependable instead of sweating the next job and getting paid on time.
It simply made more sense to lease and let them fix it rather than invest in a shop and support equipment. Of course these methods didn't last forever, but for those that got in early it seemed to work well. All about timing I guess.
As my machines approach their 35th birthdays, I often think about how nice a joy stick and well designed operator station would be. Then I think about how much I would have to work them to make the payments. Much better for me to just worry about how to keep them running and dependable instead of sweating the next job and getting paid on time.
ol' Grump
Well-Known Member
The way I see the "too old" part is when parts are no longer readily available w/o having to go to a wrecking yard for antique bit'n'pieces.
digger242j
Administrator
I'm pretty sure it was our member surfer-joe who said here, "In 50 years, there will be more 100 year old machines working than there will be 50 year old machines working."
I've always figured it had to get about so bad, before things improved, I've also noticed that there are several manufacturers who have a rebuild program for older machines. Bring them in they'll go through them end to end and even put a new warranty on the components being rebuilt. I"m wondering why the companies would do this, then the usual reasons come along, first is, there's money in it, second people are requesting it as a service.
I'm now wondering how long it take to kick in to the manufacturers those customers don't want their new machines for many reasons, and until those reasons are resolved, they won't ever want to buy and own them. I'm also thinking and have been told, there are enough of them that think this way, they are now catering to those people with the rebuild programs, while they work out the issues that are keeping those brand loyal, paying customers from buying their new machines, but change takes time.
I'm now wondering how long it take to kick in to the manufacturers those customers don't want their new machines for many reasons, and until those reasons are resolved, they won't ever want to buy and own them. I'm also thinking and have been told, there are enough of them that think this way, they are now catering to those people with the rebuild programs, while they work out the issues that are keeping those brand loyal, paying customers from buying their new machines, but change takes time.
caterpillarmech
Senior Member
I recently worked on a 6b that was in a bad state of repair. A stock broker bought it to prep a couple of 20 acre lots. This thing is rough. Transmission is slipping, track adjusters keep blowing out and the operation is ungodly. If the guy running the machine had four more arms he might be able to keep up! I know I am a young pup at almost 40 with fifteen years on the job and many more before swamping for my dad, but the new machines are so easy to use. Easy to work on with my computer and parts are in usually the next morning. I love seeing old equipment still running. When you have to wait weeks on parts, and it breaks every other day, it is time for an upgrade.
OFF
Senior Member
Ultimately, it's up to the operator. I've seen great equipment in great shape go to waste just because it's a little older and trades/operators demand the latest & greatest.
I see new equipment breaking down just as much as the old stuff but the attitude is totally different. A new piece breaks down and it's "ah well, **** happens". Something old breaks down and it's, "get that old POS out of here, & I don't ever want to see it again".
I see new equipment breaking down just as much as the old stuff but the attitude is totally different. A new piece breaks down and it's "ah well, **** happens". Something old breaks down and it's, "get that old POS out of here, & I don't ever want to see it again".
John C.
Senior Member
It's is all about money!
Right now the price of new is sky high and there aren't that many projects going that will support those kinds of payments long enough to recoup the costs. Good used equipment right now brings a premium but is getting hard to find.
On the other side it is getting hard to find those kinds of people who have the knowledge and inclination to work on older iron. Time is another factor in rebuild scenarios. I know it's aggravating when a processor knocks a production machine off line. But the fix is usually a matter of days away. A rebuild on a mid size machine takes months and requires those hard to find personnel and lots of resources that many if not most businesses refuse to spend money on. The cost of parts is another factor. Basically the manufacturers have figured out to price the parts in terms of the labor to install it. The cost of a part plus the labor, is the cost of the exchange component with a warranty. Now pop all exchange parts in a machine, add your labor and you get nearly the cost of that new gee whiz monster with all the bells and whistles plus the warranties and government compliance factors that go with it.
The final straw in the coffin holding the old iron, is the emissions controls. The government, in trying to help all, has determined that engines built prior to somewhere before 1998 are too dirty to run any more. By law the manufacturers cannot build any engines to take the place of anything built before those particular phase in time frames. In Washington State we have already seen government jobs that set limits for run time on jobs where non complying machines were used. The economy slowed the process some the issue isn't going away. We are in Tier 4 Final now. In our government employees continuing process of justifying their jobs, they have just about completed the requirements for Tier 5 and I'm sure are working on Tier 6. It won't be long before the requirements will require less pollution from a D9 than a person smoking a cigarette.
Right now the price of new is sky high and there aren't that many projects going that will support those kinds of payments long enough to recoup the costs. Good used equipment right now brings a premium but is getting hard to find.
On the other side it is getting hard to find those kinds of people who have the knowledge and inclination to work on older iron. Time is another factor in rebuild scenarios. I know it's aggravating when a processor knocks a production machine off line. But the fix is usually a matter of days away. A rebuild on a mid size machine takes months and requires those hard to find personnel and lots of resources that many if not most businesses refuse to spend money on. The cost of parts is another factor. Basically the manufacturers have figured out to price the parts in terms of the labor to install it. The cost of a part plus the labor, is the cost of the exchange component with a warranty. Now pop all exchange parts in a machine, add your labor and you get nearly the cost of that new gee whiz monster with all the bells and whistles plus the warranties and government compliance factors that go with it.
The final straw in the coffin holding the old iron, is the emissions controls. The government, in trying to help all, has determined that engines built prior to somewhere before 1998 are too dirty to run any more. By law the manufacturers cannot build any engines to take the place of anything built before those particular phase in time frames. In Washington State we have already seen government jobs that set limits for run time on jobs where non complying machines were used. The economy slowed the process some the issue isn't going away. We are in Tier 4 Final now. In our government employees continuing process of justifying their jobs, they have just about completed the requirements for Tier 5 and I'm sure are working on Tier 6. It won't be long before the requirements will require less pollution from a D9 than a person smoking a cigarette.