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My 1992 580sk swing..

JakeSherlock

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
19
Location
sunshine coast bc
I go away and think for a while ,then come back...lol. So it seems like something's wrong with my cylinder rebuild(s) or.. As alrman has repeated...the valve rod needs adjusting in small increments to find the happy spot. Maybe my cam and pin work has thrown it out of whack. If the plunger in the valve is not right on , some port is exposed allowing a bleed down..? I will try adjusting it and see what happens. Any thoughts....
 

melben

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Williamsport, Pa
Occupation
Retired 50 Yrs with Case dealership
Jake, as others have stated, warm the oil in the machine using another circuit, when the oil is very warm, then swing and hold it it in one direction for a minute then feel the cylinders where the piston would be and see if the barrel heats in that area. Heat would indicate the passage of warm oil through a leak. When I repack those cylinders I wrap 5 or 6 turns of electrical tape around the packing and put a stainless steel clamp on and compress the packing for a few minutes, it will slide right in much easier. I have many years experience with those machines , what you are describing still sounds like cylinder problems. I reserve the right to be wrong but if the problem did not exist before the cylinder repair I would not tear into anything else till I had eliminated the cylinders as a problem, as I stated before, sequencing valves are extremely trouble free.
 

JakeSherlock

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
19
Location
sunshine coast bc
Hi melben, thanks again for taking the time here. I most certainly will follow your advice on checking for a bypass situation and have no doubt or your experience and vast knowledge on the subject. You are a well respected member here from what I can see! I would like to put this to you though.. when my digger is running and warm the swing "appears" to be working as normal indicating to me that both cylinders are filled.. both rod ends and both tube ends. It seems like fluid is slowly bleeding out of one or both at one or both ends via the valve thusly creating an air void in one or both cylinders . There are no visible leaks.. This creates the "neutral"compression space I'm pushing against when I lean on it. If were just oil bleeding by the piston seals, wouldn't both ends of the cylinder(s) be full of oil still?. Where would the oil go? I'm leaning towards a rod adjustment to center the valve. Do you know how this reciprocating swing set up works exactly? What does that drain tube do? I certainly respect and appreciate your input. I will get to the bottom of it and post here the end result.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
13,037
Location
Canada
The test to check if one side of a cylinder is hotter is about the simplest test there is. There doesn't have to be an external leak for the internal seals to leak. If oil is bypassing the internal seals it would/could cause the oil level to be lower on one side of the piston. You seem to be questioning all the suggestions for troubleshooting your problem. Questioning everything instead of listening and trying what has been suggested leads to pages long threads that people get annoyed with and eventually stop trying to help leaving you on your own. God forbid you have another problem you need help with. People won't want to be involved in another pages long thread where everything suggested is questioned. If everything worked fine before the cylinder rebuilds, a problem with the seals would be the 1st thing to suspect is the problem. Checking for temperature differences is an easy way to confirm or deny this.
 

melben

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Williamsport, Pa
Occupation
Retired 50 Yrs with Case dealership
If the swing is working normally as far as swinging with the engine running then it should be easy to see if the cushioning is equal. Even if it is not exactly equal to the 1nch is not problematic, that is were you touch up cushioning with a rod adjustment There are some dynamics that happen when there is packing leaking because of the unequal volume between the rod end and piston end, A cylinder with leaky packing can be extended as there is room for the oil on the piston side for the rod side oil due to rod diameter and a void can be drawn behind the piston. However, if the rod is tried to be pushed in the oil volume is greater on the piston side and as the oil tries to go to the rod end with the rod end valve closed the rod end cannot accept the oil so the cylinder becomes for all practical purposes a simple displacement cylinder of whatever the rod diameter is. If a gauge were inserted into either end of the cylinder it would read well above the pressure that would normally be there with a good piston packing if it were holding up a load, This is what makes diagnosing hydraulic problems challenging, add the fact of two cylinders in the mix and it really gets fun!
 
Last edited:

JakeSherlock

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
19
Location
sunshine coast bc
Wow...Dave. what's with the arrogance buddy! I did respond above Tinkerer. What's up with you guys? Hey? I work full time doing 10 hour shifts running a cat 336 with an sm 45 hammer hanging off it .Plus 5 acres to maintain plus my mechanical junk Maybe you're all retired and bored or something. Tell me what is wrong with diagnostics? That's what's going on here .If nobody knows or is willing to participate in meaningful discussion and only wants to lord their arrogance on others wanting to learn they shouldn't be here saying anything! IMO. melben, thank you once again for your intelligent input and time!
 

Tinkerer

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
9,448
Location
The shore of the illinois river USA
Nuthin up with me. No arrogance here. I'm just trying to help you in a small way.
Suggestions have been offered to help you.
I may be missing something, but it seems to me that you don't answer or try to do the diagnostic suggestions that were posted.
Alarman graciously asked about the way it swings from side to side and you didn't respond.
Warming the hydraulic oil so that the cylinders could be checked for leakage was another suggestion that you seemed to have ignored.
You said it swung okay before you sealed the cylinders. Now it swings goofy.
Common sense for me would be to verify that the cylinders are in fact sealed properly.
Then I would be looking at the sequence valve adjustment.
If there is a problem with the cylinders and you get the sequence valve way out of adjustment by messing with it you will compound your problem in a bad way.
I'm sorry you are working long hours.
I spent a lifetime working stupid long hours running construction equipment also.
 

Welder Dave

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Oct 11, 2014
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13,037
Location
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I certainly wasn't trying to be arrogant just telling it like it is. Instead of trying simple things that have been suggested you question them and try to come up with your own theories on what is or could be causing the problem. Members on here have an incredible amount of knowledge and experience. Questioning everything suggested tends to irritate them. You're fairly new to this forum so likely aren't familiar with some of the threads that have gone on and on needlessly because people with a problem appear to not accept the advice given. Very knowledgeable members have even left the forum altogether because their expertise has been questioned and they're tired of going over the same thing over and over. Instead of just thanking Melbin for his experience maybe you should be thanking everyone who is trying to help you. I agree with Tinkerer.
 

JakeSherlock

Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2021
Messages
19
Location
sunshine coast bc
Ok gentlemen, I have to respond to this. Firstly, I may be new to posting here but I am in no way new to reading here. I'm also not new to life nor machinery. I've done my homework and read vast amounts of material on all manners of things before I ever consider posting. Where exactly do you get the idea.. any of you.. that I don't listen or take in what's being said? That presumption is imo tantamount to arrogance. Perhaps some "senior" members would be well advised to go back and look up the word forum... "A place for the discussion of ideas." Senior member syndrome I'll call it. I've seen it many times on many forums , although never directed at me. If members are just too tired to bother any more.. get lost then. So. Dave, is this forum on some kind of time clock like a professional chess match? I'm not looking at or working on anything at someone else's behest! I'll look into my situation using any knowledge from others that know more than me gleaned from various sources, when I see fit. I may never fix it. That ,my friend , is my prerogative. Once again, if someone sees my thread and doesn't want to respond...that's their prerogative. I have been friendly and mindful of peoples responses and I learned young to appreciate people's time and say thanks! Tinkerer , back a ways I said that the swing appears even. If I measured EXACTLY I would report that. OK? I've read everything I can find especially alrman's posts. No one as of yet has posted knowledge of haw EXACTLY this reciprocating cylinder set up works. Perhaps that's my fault for not narrowing my thread down to just that! Hey? That old 6 had bypass ports built right into the cylinders.. how bout that? So , Dave, if you're trying to get rid of me you're doing a good job . Is that too long winded for ya????????????
 

Tinkerer

Senior Member
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May 21, 2009
Messages
9,448
Location
The shore of the illinois river USA
Wow !
Like I posted before, you seemed to have ignored alrman's first question.
And the rest of the members questions.
Did you warm the hyd. oil and check the cylinder temperatures as suggested ?
Until you verify to us that hydraulic cylinders are functioning like they are supposed to, I don't think anyone will offer any more help.

I didn't think your thread was about the theory of operation.
That is usually covered in the hydraulic flow charts in the service manual. I don't know of any arrogant senior members have ever tried to "get rid of someone"
I never doubted your ability's to repair anything. Your D6 repair was impressive actually.
If you don't want to check the cylinders with an infrared temp gun you could dead end the cylinders and then remove hose on that end and apply more hydraulic pressure to the cylinder and it will either gush oil out of the port or it won't.
 

Welder Dave

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Oct 11, 2014
Messages
13,037
Location
Canada
Wow is right!!!
Yeah your response is too long winded and I'm sure others would agree with my assessment.
It is very clear you were looking for someone to agree with your line of thinking and in complete denial that you may have botched something when doing the cylinder seals. A large portion of the members on here work a full time job and/or have their own things to do. They come on here to offer their expertise and experience to try and help others out. They don't have the time nor the patience to go back and forth with someone who is trying to get approval for their misguided theories. You've been friendly and mindful of peoples responses???? Not so much. Yelling at Tinkerer is somehow mindful and thanking him? I was trying to help keep your thread from getting lost among all the other threads where members are seeking advice. Many of the same members trying to help you are also trying to help others. I was never trying to get rid of you just offering what I thought was friendly advice to help you get your machine fixed. You took it the wrong way, instead of considering it, and went off the deep end. That's on you!
Good Luck fixing your backhoe
 
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