Fiat 70CI. Repairs, modifications and stories.

[Jeembawb]

I love your tester. Great idea. What was the secret in choosing the bottle jack? I chickened out on tackling my injection system and handed the task to the specialists but the situation may occur again sometime when I have more time!

Time... yeah... who sells that again? The secret is in the top nut and the cylinder it threads onto, specifically what type of bypass passage it has. The first one (pictured previously) I got cheap at a Repco sale and it had a 1/2 round milled slot along the thread of the nut for the bypass. The issue is that you have to block this passage completely at up to 3000psi & the only way to do that is with JB Weld (or the permatex equivalent which is actually rated to 3000psi) & the slot had to be filled with JB Weld then tightened (which disturbs the JB Weld). It didn't quite work but it was worth a crack. The Jack to get is one that has the tinyest pinhole in the thread of the cylinder (which can easily be JB Welded when clean) and a hole in the nut which is easily welded - It was potluck, but I got a Kinchrome jack on sale at Bunnings and was lucky it was the right type. I was already at parts cost overload, being that I had already spent around $150 on jack & fittings/gauge etc & the cheapest "bought" version I could find online was about that (plus frieght from India) but most are nomally $250 - 450.

I just did it to remove the mystery, the black art of diesel injection systems. Worked out pretty easy really (on these old simple injector at least) - once I knew what I was doing i could redo an injector per hour. I have another 30 injectors to do around the farm now - just have to find the time now...

Jimbob

 

[Jeembawb]

My experience has been that every thread on a Fiat dozer has a 1.5mm pitch, regardless of diameter. This applies also to the big nuts on the ends of shafts. Buy a 1.5mm thread file and you can't go wrong!

On the back end maybe Nutwood, to bolt down various housings etc - but most of the stuff I have worked on with my Fiats has been around the engine area & I can say the M8 & M10 stuff that threads into the block is most often 1.25mm. I have a fairly large stock of 1.25mm pitch bolts & nuts in these sizes & I have a huge tap & die set that has every size but M8 & 10 x 1.25 & had to get separate taps to do some jobs. Must get myself a thread file one day.

Jimbob

 

[Jeembawb]

Well I reckon the guesses are all in so here's an better image. Queenslander's in the right area. I posted it as a puzzle because it took me a while to notice and I didn't have the tricky lighting. What fooled me was everything went back into the right place when I backed out on to clear ground and parked. I probably should have used this image first up after I uploaded the first image and saw how hard it was but I thought I'd give it a go anyway and see if any eagle eyed person would spot it.

Must work out how to do this multi quoting :idontgetit

Thats a better picture Nutwood - can see the missing part now. Did you find it?

 

[nutwood]

On the back end maybe Nutwood, to bolt down various housings etc - but most of the stuff I have worked on with my Fiats has been around the engine area & I can say the M8 & M10 stuff that threads into the block is most often 1.25mm. I have a fairly large stock of 1.25mm pitch bolts & nuts in these sizes & I have a huge tap & die set that has every size but M8 & 10 x 1.25 & had to get separate taps to do some jobs. Must get myself a thread file one day.

Jimbob

OK, I knew when I wrote that I'd regret it!! I should have qualified it 12mm and up. Theory gets a bit shaky under that. I'm not sure about 10mm, it seems to be the world problem thread with at least four different pitches available but you're quite right 8mm is 1.25 and I've no idea what the 6mm pitch is; probably 1.00.

 

[nutwood]

Must work out how to do this multi quoting :idontgetit

Thats a better picture Nutwood - can see the missing part now. Did you find it?

It is a better picture and congratulations are in order. I didn't spot it the first time. I was clearing a fence line and the tilt didn't seem to be working right. It responded as expected but the blade never seemed to be the right place. I backed out, walked around, scratched my head, examined hoses and gave up. I went back to work and all seemed well until I tried to push a tree over. All of a sudden the blade was in a very strange place. I actually stalled the engine with the front of the machine halfway up a tree and the blade trying to climb over the bonnet. In hindsight the stall was operator error (read panic!) but at the time I thought I'd broken something major!
I started up, backed off to clear ground, and this time spotted the problem. It was back in place, just like in the image! I looked over to where I'd been working and nearly didn't bother looking further. I'd been clearing dense vegetation and the ground level was 0.5m below the top of the debris. I figured out where I'd first noticed something unusual and clambered over. Surprise, surprise, nothing but crushed green and brown stuff. I poked about a bit and was just extracting myself when I saw a bent 16mm bolt (1.5mm pitch!). Amazingly, buried just near it was the bit I needed. I'd been trying to work out the better option, hire a metal detector or simply build a new part, but yes; I found it!!
The next question, which is more philosophical: Is it a lucky, or unlucky event, when a part comes adrift but no harm is done and, against all odds, you find the missing part?

 

[nutwood]

Time... yeah... who sells that again? The secret is in the top nut and the cylinder it threads onto, specifically what type of bypass passage it has. The first one (pictured previously) I got cheap at a Repco sale and it had a 1/2 round milled slot along the thread of the nut for the bypass. The issue is that you have to block this passage completely at up to 3000psi & the only way to do that is with JB Weld (or the permatex equivalent which is actually rated to 3000psi) & the slot had to be filled with JB Weld then tightened (which disturbs the JB Weld). It didn't quite work but it was worth a crack. The Jack to get is one that has the tinyest pinhole in the thread of the cylinder (which can easily be JB Welded when clean) and a hole in the nut which is easily welded - It was potluck, but I got a Kinchrome jack on sale at Bunnings and was lucky it was the right type. I was already at parts cost overload, being that I had already spent around $150 on jack & fittings/gauge etc & the cheapest "bought" version I could find online was about that (plus frieght from India) but most are nomally $250 - 450.

I just did it to remove the mystery, the black art of diesel injection systems. Worked out pretty easy really (on these old simple injector at least) - once I knew what I was doing i could redo an injector per hour. I have another 30 injectors to do around the farm now - just have to find the time now...

Jimbob

I like it, especially the bit about the black art. You are so right. My life seems to be tied to diesel engines. I keep trying to escape but I still end up tinkering around with dirty smelly lumps of iron that'll turn a nice clean sump of oil black in a matter of minutes. However, in all those years, I've never tackled the injection system, apart from superficial tweaks.
Since I got my pump re-built and the injectors fixed, my dozer's like a new machine. It'll push more in second than it used to in first and yet I wouldn't have dreamed of tackling the injection system if it hadn't got so bad I couldn't avoid the task.
I also had a lot of work done on the pump so it's hard to say how much tackling the injectors alone would have helped but having seen the spray (dribble!) pattern when they were tested, I suspect that most of the power increase came from the injectors and the general performance (starting, smoothness etc) came from the pump. It'd be a good thing if us operators of older machines could learn to service our injectors on a regular basis. Easy if you're a contractor with a new machine, you just pay someone, but how do you justify it for a farm dozer?

 

[Jeembawb]

OK, I knew when I wrote that I'd regret it!! I should have qualified it 12mm and up. Theory gets a bit shaky under that. I'm not sure about 10mm, it seems to be the world problem thread with at least four different pitches available but you're quite right 8mm is 1.25 and I've no idea what the 6mm pitch is; probably 1.00.

You're right about M10 being a problem thread with all it's incarnations - Interestingly M6 is only available in 1mm pitch.

Jimbob
(a cowboy full of useless details) :Cowboy

 

[Jeembawb]

Fiat 451c 411c 411r Alternator Conversion

Just in case someone else has to do this I have some pics of the brackets & adjuster that I made to fit a universal mount Bosch alternator & kept it all nice & snug up against the engine so as not to catch any logs that might be coming past. Also the adjuster is made to be super easy to adjust and not come loose in operation like all the sloted brackets seem to.









Tucked in nice & snug

 

[nutwood]

You're right about M10 being a problem thread with all it's incarnations - Interestingly M6 is only available in 1mm pitch.

Jimbob
(a cowboy full of useless details) :Cowboy

C'mon, you must have metric fine up there; M6 x 0.75

 

[Jeembawb]

Will get it back to tip top working condition then put give it a go with spreader, slasher, spraying.

3pt linkage is fixed, injector pump is with doctor, the steering clutches and brakes are next.

Hard yards were done with D4D, the Fiat is for general work.

Will think about restoration later (ie paint).

Tarpon140 - are you still out there? did you make some good progress yet on your little dozer?

Jimbob

 

[Jeembawb]

Fiat 451c first startup

Yeehhaaaawww

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLUPjM_hcY&feature=plcp

Jimbob :Cowboy

 

[Jeembawb]

Fiat 451c pre start pics

I finally got round to putting the resurrected starter back in



Then I fitted a special starter motor cover that should stop it getting water in again



I reckon there could be a bit of crud in the IP that I don't want to go into my newly done injectors - so it needs a bit of a flush



That came out clean enough & all 4 are pumping, so time to make a new injector line for number 3, hookup the glows & see if she goes!!!



Yeehaarr!!! Now where was that list of all the other stuff that needs doing on her?

Jimbob :Cowboy

 

[Jeembawb]

Nuts & Bolts

C'mon, you must have metric fine up there; M6 x 0.75

Hey Nutwood - we don't have metric fine M6 x 0.75 up here in the boonies (well not that I've seen & the bolt mob told me there was only one M6 thread), but I was on a chinese ebay site for taps & dies the other day & whatteryerno!! They have M6 x 0.75 too - well I'll be a monkeys uncle! I figured you was windin' up .

One of my pet hates is people that prattle on about stuff as if it's 100% dead set when they is dead set wrong. There are a few teachers around that remembers me - I used to pull them up if they were trying to put over wrong info because the other 30 in the class could go off into the world with wrong info prattling on as if it were gospel and that's a recipe for mass ignorance (something like that anyway). Nothing worse than a Know it all that doesn't Know! Somehow a Know it all that does Know, is still able to get by in life - I think that's called "justifiable arrogance", but that's a whole nutha subject now.

M6 x 0.75 - You called it :duh

Jimbob :Cowboy Cowboys can be wrong too!

 

[Roycehg]

Sorry Roycehg - somehow I missed your question posted. The answer is that Fiats are European metric in bolt head size as compared to Japanese metric. i.e. a 13mm nut on a fiat would be a 12mm nut on a jap truck for the same bolt etc, but you will find the thread pitch will most often be the same. Say for the 8 & 10mm bolts the most common thread pitch on the fiats is 1.25mm, (with some 1.5mm pitch as well) - the 1.25mm pitch is not considered "metric fine" in these sizes as that title is for the 1mm thread pitch. You will find it a little hard to get some of these bolt sizes unless it is a good bolt shop that carry "automotive" thread bolts. Also on head sizes, some of the fiat bolts ( say M10 bolts) have a 14mm head ( as do jap bolts) but all you can get at a normal bolt shop is stuff with 17mm head which doesn't always fit in the same spot. This is why farmers with fiat tractors usually have a coffee tin (or milo ) full of fiat bolts, also worth doing same with jap bolts. Pretty much nothing imperial on these unless the non factory blade & ripper gear etc has.

Thanks for the reply Jeembawb

 

[ianoz]

After a lot of dramas ,we have our 70CI Up and running .
Noticed it is difficult to get into gear , like the Clutch brake is not working ..Once it is in gear forward reverse seems to shift OK ,Until it is left out of gear with the engine running for a while .

Seems to struggle to lift the blade when pushing .Rippers will lift out OK . The pressure hose from the pump looks to small ,when you look at the size of the other hoses . Any Advice welcome .

 

[nutwood]

I'd reckon you're right about the clutch brake. I had the same issue. When you shift "on the go" it'll shift OK but not when you first start or if you let it sit. Mine was soaked with oil and useless.
If that is the problem, it's possible to replace the linings without too much trouble or expense. I managed to do mine without removing the clutch. I did the front seal on the forward/reverse box at the same time. If I get a chance I'll see if I've any images of the process and post them. I recall a bit of mucking about modifying tools to work in a restricted space.

 

[ianoz]

Thanks Mate , What about Blade lift ,do you have problems there ?

 

[nutwood]

Thanks Mate , What about Blade lift ,do you have problems there ?

Not really. I do have something strange going on where sometimes my blade will hold position fine and other times keep falling down. No big deal, except it can make for surprises when I'm walking to another location and am suddenly woken up by stopping suddenly as the blade digs in! I've always figured it for one of those hydraulic things that I could probably fix by getting oily for a day.
Your slow lift could be a number of things. I wouldn't have undersized hoses at the top of my list. You say it's a problem as you are pushing? That implies lack of grunt. Weak pump, piston seal bypassing, dodgy pressure relief, worn spool? Hard to say. The ripper being OK might be a clue, might not. A ripper doesn't generally need the force that a blade does, so might not show up the problem?
No real suggestions except basic fault finding. If you've got a gauge and fittings to check pressures at different locations it'd be a help.

 

[Garrie Denny]

Ianoz: my 70 had the same problem once but turned out I had the by-pass valve that controls either feed to rear rippers, or to the blade halw way between both until I noticed that the blade was slow as to lift, maybe check that ?

 

[ianoz]

Well , The 70ci went for a drive on the tilt tray


,this came back in its place