I'm sure you are smart enough to see there is no connecting. I was just making the point in saying that the bevel gear can be an issue with them, its not rocket science!!!!
-
Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
Fiat 70CI. Repairs, modifications and stories.
- Thread starter nutwood
- Start date
I'm sure you are smart enough to see there is no connecting. I was just making the point in saying that the bevel gear can be an issue with them, its not rocket science!!!!
I must confess that I haven't enjoyed setting the bevel gear the couple of times I've done it but I just thought that went with the territory. I've never enjoyed setting crown wheel and pinions. There's something sort of permanent about the job. Stuff it up and you're going to be replacing some very expensive metal but there's not really any solid indication that this is right and this is wrong.
I've only ever worked on a Fiat dozer. Do they arrange these things better on other machines? I'd have thought that the mechanics of a bevel gear would be the same regardless of make. The drive starts off heading up the machine and it has to turn a corner. Short of using hydraulic motors there has to be some sort of crown wheel and pinion and these have to marry up properly?
I've only ever worked on a Fiat dozer. Do they arrange these things better on other machines? I'd have thought that the mechanics of a bevel gear would be the same regardless of make. The drive starts off heading up the machine and it has to turn a corner. Short of using hydraulic motors there has to be some sort of crown wheel and pinion and these have to marry up properly?
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
You will be flat out trying to find a car mechanic these days or even in days gone by, that is willing to even have a decent go at setting up cw & p - they all think it is a specialist job, like some black art that gets passed down - pretty sure they don't have teachers to teach it in the tech colleges these days anyway (guess that's what happens when for over 20 years our down under countries haven't invested in trade training) - the good old days when people could make something work without the brand new parts and factory tools, if you couldn't fix it you had to make it. It's good to see people like that here - makes me feel better about the world. Necessity is the mother of all invention hey!
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Starting my remote steering clutch operation today (prelims anyway) - got the camera charged up - ready to start mutterin' 
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Alternator conversion
Thought this might be of interest to anyone who has had a generator fail. My problem was fairly simple, the amp meter stopped showing any charge with the engine running. Bit of diagnostic work showed the generator to be the culprit. I won't go into details on this as I'm by no means an expert on generators. The principles are straightforward and I'd reckon anyone with electrical knowledge should be able to figure it out. In my instance a multi-meter told the story. It cost me $20 from our local re-winders to get it confirmed that my armature was shorting to ground and the only solution was to re-wind. The problem in my instance was that the generator bushes were completely flogged out and the armature was hitting the sides. The damage can be seen in the image.
Initially I considered re-winding and sticking with the original generator. Generators are old technology but I figured this one had lasted over forty years and was a good solid bit of equipment. Initial estimate (part of the $20) put the repair cost between $400 and $600 to completely rewind and replace bushes. I might have proceeded had I not stopped and thought about the generator control box. This also contains windings and was also forty plus years old. Bitter experience with Murphy's law told me that the moment I rewound the generator, the control box would go belly up and cost another $500. Regretfully I decided to ditch the original arrangement and update.:deadhorse
For me there was no decision as to what to use for a replacement. I've had a good run out of Bosch alternators over the years so I went straight for a Bosch 24V universal. The original generator installation is quite a neat system. There's a bracket that attaches to the machine and has the twin pulley drive (greaseable) on the front. The generator itself sits on this bracket and is held on by a single broad strap. Drive is through a basic coupling.
Because I liked this arrangement I initially looked at getting a bare shaft alternator and simply transplanting the coupling onto the front of the alternator. Both the coupling and an alternator shaft were 17mm. After a bit of head scratching I abandoned this idea as I'd have had to quite radically modify the alternator and/or the bracket. Consequently I went for a BXU2456A alternator that comes with a double B section pulley on it. I obtained mine via the internet and it arrived within a few days. Prices vary but you should get change out of $300 (mid 2012)
My installation was fairly basic and brutal. The original bracket had two legs that sat either side of a boss attached to one of the radiator support arms and had a 12mm bolt through them. The alternator had a single mounting leg with a 10mm hole through it. I drilled the hole in the alternator leg out to 12mm, cut the support boss back and welded a threaded lug onto the support arm. I cut the support boss back with a 5" angle grinder without removing it from the machine. I carefully calculated where to cut it, did the deed, then lined the alternator up with a straight edge. Something wrong somewhere. Back to the grinder! I ended up with 30mm of the boss left. I then sat the alternator in place with a 12mm bolt through, carefully lined up the pulleys and measured up the front tab. I can't give measurements as I didn't take any. A bit of WeetBix box and a pair of scissors were the design tools
The front tab was duly cut out of a bit of 10mm flat bar (grinder again), drilled and tapped to 12mm. I then offered it up, screwed the bolt in, checked the pulley alignment and tacked in place. Removed the alternator and welded properly. I only welded across the front so that the weld would pull the tab forward, allowing easy alternator installation. It pulls back when the bolt (100mm x 12mm ) is tightened.
This got the bottom support sorted. I then attacked the top, adjustable bracket. For some strange reason the stud that this bracket attaches to goes right through to engine oil. I had a lot of trouble with mine and had to take it right out. I put it back in with some hydraulic sealant on the thread. Anyway the bracket modification was fairly simple. I put in the vice and bent a dogleg into it, then welded on a short piece of 1" flat bar. I actually used a bit of stainless but that was only because it was handy. I drilled the 8mm hole for the alternator centrally. I should have offset it as I then had to clearance the bracket where the alternator bulges. See image.
Main hassle on this job was the need to change the belts. Sounds easy but the hydraulic pump drives off the front of the crank. I had to disconnect the flange on the front pulley, take the radiator guard off, then back off the pump mounting bolts as far as I could without dropping the pump off. This just allowed room for the belts to slide through. The original belts were 52". Actually one was, the other was longer and unlabelled. Who'd only replace one belt!:Banghead Anyway, one was too tight for the alternator. If they'd been good I might have persisted but they weren't so I replaced with two BX53's. I got busy with the grinder again and did a bit of clearance work where the belts pass over the support arm. They weren't touching but were close enough that I figured that they would, once the belts stretched a bit.
That covers the mechanical side of the job. I'll cover the rest in the next post and another five images.
Thought this might be of interest to anyone who has had a generator fail. My problem was fairly simple, the amp meter stopped showing any charge with the engine running. Bit of diagnostic work showed the generator to be the culprit. I won't go into details on this as I'm by no means an expert on generators. The principles are straightforward and I'd reckon anyone with electrical knowledge should be able to figure it out. In my instance a multi-meter told the story. It cost me $20 from our local re-winders to get it confirmed that my armature was shorting to ground and the only solution was to re-wind. The problem in my instance was that the generator bushes were completely flogged out and the armature was hitting the sides. The damage can be seen in the image.
Initially I considered re-winding and sticking with the original generator. Generators are old technology but I figured this one had lasted over forty years and was a good solid bit of equipment. Initial estimate (part of the $20) put the repair cost between $400 and $600 to completely rewind and replace bushes. I might have proceeded had I not stopped and thought about the generator control box. This also contains windings and was also forty plus years old. Bitter experience with Murphy's law told me that the moment I rewound the generator, the control box would go belly up and cost another $500. Regretfully I decided to ditch the original arrangement and update.:deadhorse
For me there was no decision as to what to use for a replacement. I've had a good run out of Bosch alternators over the years so I went straight for a Bosch 24V universal. The original generator installation is quite a neat system. There's a bracket that attaches to the machine and has the twin pulley drive (greaseable) on the front. The generator itself sits on this bracket and is held on by a single broad strap. Drive is through a basic coupling.
Because I liked this arrangement I initially looked at getting a bare shaft alternator and simply transplanting the coupling onto the front of the alternator. Both the coupling and an alternator shaft were 17mm. After a bit of head scratching I abandoned this idea as I'd have had to quite radically modify the alternator and/or the bracket. Consequently I went for a BXU2456A alternator that comes with a double B section pulley on it. I obtained mine via the internet and it arrived within a few days. Prices vary but you should get change out of $300 (mid 2012)
My installation was fairly basic and brutal. The original bracket had two legs that sat either side of a boss attached to one of the radiator support arms and had a 12mm bolt through them. The alternator had a single mounting leg with a 10mm hole through it. I drilled the hole in the alternator leg out to 12mm, cut the support boss back and welded a threaded lug onto the support arm. I cut the support boss back with a 5" angle grinder without removing it from the machine. I carefully calculated where to cut it, did the deed, then lined the alternator up with a straight edge.
Something wrong somewhere. Back to the grinder! I ended up with 30mm of the boss left. I then sat the alternator in place with a 12mm bolt through, carefully lined up the pulleys and measured up the front tab. I can't give measurements as I didn't take any. A bit of WeetBix box and a pair of scissors were the design toolsThe front tab was duly cut out of a bit of 10mm flat bar (grinder again), drilled and tapped to 12mm. I then offered it up, screwed the bolt in, checked the pulley alignment and tacked in place. Removed the alternator and welded properly. I only welded across the front so that the weld would pull the tab forward, allowing easy alternator installation. It pulls back when the bolt (100mm x 12mm ) is tightened.
This got the bottom support sorted. I then attacked the top, adjustable bracket. For some strange reason the stud that this bracket attaches to goes right through to engine oil. I had a lot of trouble with mine and had to take it right out. I put it back in with some hydraulic sealant on the thread. Anyway the bracket modification was fairly simple. I put in the vice and bent a dogleg into it, then welded on a short piece of 1" flat bar. I actually used a bit of stainless but that was only because it was handy. I drilled the 8mm hole for the alternator centrally.
I should have offset it as I then had to clearance the bracket where the alternator bulges. See image. Main hassle on this job was the need to change the belts. Sounds easy but the hydraulic pump drives off the front of the crank. I had to disconnect the flange on the front pulley, take the radiator guard off, then back off the pump mounting bolts as far as I could without dropping the pump off. This just allowed room for the belts to slide through. The original belts were 52". Actually one was, the other was longer and unlabelled. Who'd only replace one belt!:Banghead Anyway, one was too tight for the alternator. If they'd been good I might have persisted but they weren't so I replaced with two BX53's. I got busy with the grinder again and did a bit of clearance work where the belts pass over the support arm. They weren't touching but were close enough that I figured that they would, once the belts stretched a bit.
That covers the mechanical side of the job. I'll cover the rest in the next post and another five images.
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
Read you comment properly thats definetly not rocket anything.
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Nice Job Nutwood - bit jealous - i gotta plug into power or solar at the end of the day & count how many starts i put my batteries through before needing a charge - i would like to use the genie mount seeing as i have replaced all the bearings/seals in it and new belts etc so would probably look at an extension off the front of the alt if Diameter of alt permits to mate with the dog clutch - solar panel rops would probably work just as well
Alternator conversion 2
So far, so good. I had the alternator mounted up and the belts aligning.
Next step was to make it work electrically. I'm not sure what the original arrangement on a 70CI was, but my machine, when I bought it, had a basic ignition key arrangement. This gave trouble so I ditched it in favour of a simple, waterproof, push-button. Push button, starter spins. Simple and effective until you install an alternator. For reliable operation alternators require a quick kick up the D+ to get them going. I'd thrown away my key arrangement and really didn't want to go back there so I added an oil pressure switch.
I already had a oil pressure gauge, supplied via a very beat up 1/8" plastic line. My solution was to obtain an oil pressure switch (7psi switch, normally open; remember NO, it's important!) and use it to switch the alternator. Unfortunately the pressure switch was 1/8 NPT, an awkward thread for Australia. I solved this problem by acquiring a piece of 20mm square brass ($4 from local supplier), drilling a hole 3/4 way down the centre, tapping to 1/4 BSP at the end, 1/8 BSP part way and 1/8 NPT at the end of the central hole. This enabled me to replace the beat up 1/8" line with a new piece of 6mm back to the engine. The end of the piece of brass has a 1/4 BSW hole for mounting purposes. It's mounted up behind the dash with a short piece of 1/8 tube connecting to the oil pressure gauge.
At the same time as this was happening I decided to do something about my lack of engine hours monitoring. The original block mounted hour meter was defunct and I had a Stewart Warner Hobbs hour meter in my box of useful bits. I also had two surplus holes in the dozer instrument panel. One of these was enlarged to take the Hobbs meter and the other had a washer welded behind to take an alternator light. The oil pressure switch supplies power to the alternator light, and of course, the alternator, as well as powering the Hobbs meter to keep an eye on my operating hours.
Ideally, the alternator should have been wired in with new cables. It's a 55A alternator which is a tad more than the 8.5A generator it was replacing. Unfortunately, time ran out and I simply rehashed the existing wiring. Seems to be working fine so far. The basic principle is that when the engine starts and oil pressure builds, the pressure switch turns on and supplies power, via the 2 Watt globe, to the D+ terminal of the alternator. This kicks the alternator in. If I'd had a normal ignition key arrangement I could have used either the "acc" or "ign" terminals to do the same thing. I'll shove a copy of my dozer wiring diagram below. Eat your heart out owners of modern machines!
So far, so good. I had the alternator mounted up and the belts aligning.
Next step was to make it work electrically. I'm not sure what the original arrangement on a 70CI was, but my machine, when I bought it, had a basic ignition key arrangement. This gave trouble so I ditched it in favour of a simple, waterproof, push-button. Push button, starter spins. Simple and effective until you install an alternator. For reliable operation alternators require a quick kick up the D+ to get them going. I'd thrown away my key arrangement and really didn't want to go back there so I added an oil pressure switch.
I already had a oil pressure gauge, supplied via a very beat up 1/8" plastic line. My solution was to obtain an oil pressure switch (7psi switch, normally open; remember NO, it's important!) and use it to switch the alternator. Unfortunately the pressure switch was 1/8 NPT, an awkward thread for Australia. I solved this problem by acquiring a piece of 20mm square brass ($4 from local supplier), drilling a hole 3/4 way down the centre, tapping to 1/4 BSP at the end, 1/8 BSP part way and 1/8 NPT at the end of the central hole. This enabled me to replace the beat up 1/8" line with a new piece of 6mm back to the engine. The end of the piece of brass has a 1/4 BSW hole for mounting purposes. It's mounted up behind the dash with a short piece of 1/8 tube connecting to the oil pressure gauge.
At the same time as this was happening I decided to do something about my lack of engine hours monitoring. The original block mounted hour meter was defunct and I had a Stewart Warner Hobbs hour meter in my box of useful bits. I also had two surplus holes in the dozer instrument panel. One of these was enlarged to take the Hobbs meter and the other had a washer welded behind to take an alternator light. The oil pressure switch supplies power to the alternator light, and of course, the alternator, as well as powering the Hobbs meter to keep an eye on my operating hours.
Ideally, the alternator should have been wired in with new cables. It's a 55A alternator which is a tad more than the 8.5A generator it was replacing. Unfortunately, time ran out and I simply rehashed the existing wiring. Seems to be working fine so far. The basic principle is that when the engine starts and oil pressure builds, the pressure switch turns on and supplies power, via the 2 Watt globe, to the D+ terminal of the alternator. This kicks the alternator in. If I'd had a normal ignition key arrangement I could have used either the "acc" or "ign" terminals to do the same thing. I'll shove a copy of my dozer wiring diagram below. Eat your heart out owners of modern machines!
My dream is solar ROPS. My poor machine is often left to it's own devices out in the bush somewhere at the current end of a track. It'd be nice to think that in the meanwhile the batteries were getting a bit of TLC . Unfortunately the makers of solar panels don't appear to have us on their list of target clients. I cringe every time a 200kg widow maker bounces off the roof. Imagine the cringe if was taking $2k worth of panels with it!
PS. Forgot to say that using the original genie mount is by no means impossible. It was my first option. I went the way I did because it was quicker and easier, not because it was the most elegant. If you chopped the original bracket off short and fabricated mounting points, you could mount most alternators up to it. My concern would be getting the alignment right. Once done, it'd be a nice job. If you take that path, shove some images up. I'd be interested to see them.
Last edited:
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
re the wiring: I did a similar alt wiring job on my backhoe - in fact i seem to have the same pull switch that you have on your dash that acts as the "on" switch that the key would do to light up the alt light. I have a solar panel & 12/24 10a controller that can be used on any on my rigs that are away from a power point. One day i will hook up an alternator though - just less to worry about unless it's parked up for a while - Do you still have the plastic line on your oil psi nutwood???
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Plastic line's still there. I'm a bit stuck with it as I haven't been able to track down a replacement connection on to the back of the gauge. If I was desperate I'd sort something out but when I thought about it I couldn't see any real advantage in going to copper. In fact I did the line from my little manifold back to the engine in 6mm nylon. I was going to use 1/4" copper, but the connection at the engine end is metric so I just took the easy option. In a way nylon's a safer method as the line runs past the positive battery terminal and little branches have a nasty habit of pushing things where you don't want them to be. 24V down a little copper oil line could be nasty.
You've probably got the identical switch as there's not many options when you start looking at basic marine switches. I considered putting a manual switch in for the alternator but I wanted to add the hour meter and I'm quite capable of forgetting to turn it on.
I like the solar panel idea. I did look into it a few years ago but couldn't find a 24V system that I liked. I was also a bit concerned at leaving something expensive and portable out in the bush. Technically it's our property but we still get trespassers.
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
I know where youe coming from in stuff left in the bush unattended,thieves are like crows, very good eyesight, dont miss a trick and have a network of suchlike *******s that are more than happy to take whats not theirs. Enough of this, my query is that i have seen a small dripv of water from my water pump housing when i stopped the other day, a drip ,drip, approx every 3-4 seconds, thus the reason for having to top up the radiator with approx 4-5 litres after 4-5 hours operation. NOW, do you know if you can remove pump and buy a bearind/seal kit for our 70 C.I.;S or is it a replacement water pump ?,thanks Garrie.
Not a problem I've had with my dozer but I know in the past I've been pleasantly surprised with the availability of water pump bearings for old machinery. Perhaps I've been lucky?
Anyway, I'd suggest you ring 1800 062 790 (GW Tractors) or (07) 4164 2000 (South Burnett Tractors) and ask the question. Let us know the outcome.
Just out of curiosity, are you getting any pressure in your cooling system?
Anyway, I'd suggest you ring 1800 062 790 (GW Tractors) or (07) 4164 2000 (South Burnett Tractors) and ask the question. Let us know the outcome.
Just out of curiosity, are you getting any pressure in your cooling system?
fergie_1988
New Member
Sorry to butt in but does anyone have any info on bt7d dozers and what they are like as I'm looking at buying one at the minute also how hard it is ( or simple ) to adjust the turning clutch
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Hi Garrie, I have done a full rebuild on my water pump - reasonably big job - it is an old school pump and from memory has a ceramic type seal which is quite fragile and a little difficult to assemble (hence having to buy another ceramic seal from South Burnett) - I also had to do little machining on the front bearing housing / dust seal bit (can't quite think why now - it had been bashed or something). The cost of the parts alone (guesstimate from memory) was something like $100 - $130 but I think a new pump was around the $500 mark (Can confirm numbers later). Plenty of times I thought I should have got the new pump especially when I had to machine the housing, but I had already bought the parts. The diagram of the pump was invaluable when rebuilding it- let me know if you need one
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Have just attached the pages from the manual about the cooling system with the pump diagrams - there are two types. Is your machine still steaming out the rocker cover too Garrie?
I've not had any experience with them but if you're buying one, I'd immediately be asking why do you need to adjust the steering clutches? If they're anything like the 70CI, it's easy enough to adjust the clutches, so why would you sell one needing adjustment, unless adjustment has already been tried and failed to cure a problem?
fergie_1988
New Member
Thanks nutwood
I'm going to have a look at it this weekend so I will get to see what it is actually doing but for the price I'm paying I don't mind if iv got to spend some money on it if it does need work. The one thing I have noticed about this model is that it is very hard to find information on
I'm going to have a look at it this weekend so I will get to see what it is actually doing
but for the price I'm paying I don't mind if iv got to spend some money on it if it does need work. The one thing I have noticed about this model is that it is very hard to find information on