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Engine only runs with full choke

Welder Dave

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Oct 11, 2014
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I guess Miller being one of the largest manufacturers of complex electronic (welding) equipment in the world is just trying to rip people off. Their parts are ridiculous but so are almost everybody else's.

My expertise is primarily welding. I realize not everybody is competent at welding so I try to guide them when I can and try to explain the reasons why I suggest what I do. I also advise when it's best to hire an experienced welder. If they were close I might offer to fix it for them. If somebody pays more to get something welded but it's done right I don't try to make them feel bad because they couldn't do it themselves. If somebody doesn't listen and makes a big mess then I might suggest it would have been cheaper/better if they paid to have it done right.

As far as the welder goes, I'm glad there was a lower cost option to get it working right. I wouldn't have paid $2500+. I would have tried to sell it for parts with a good running engine. I think I could get 17-$2000 for it working which would still give me a profit. If I sold it with the tandem axle trailer probably $1000 more.
 
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fastline

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Aug 8, 2011
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There is certain value in an engine driven welder, and even the generator section. Not to mention for welding, you need a well regulated engine speed! So the engines are likely much larger than your typical POS generator.

As for the actual welder electrics, IMO, the big names are now trying every gimmick in the book regarding special features, because the heart of an inverter welder can do nearly anything. Some people want to believe in their head the Miller welds better. The only thing I can tell you from the electrical engineering side is if I monitor and scope the output, I can either quantify the difference, or call BS.

I will say Miller has been an industry leader for many decades. They should have it figured out! No disrespect there, and for pros, sometimes the support and parts side makes ALL the difference!

I know I did a LOT of research on Everlast years ago, and pretty convinced that is some solid equipment and value. I also burned a LOT of wire on a friends Esab 350 MIG, and I still have no idea why, but that thing is silky smooth. Could be the gun, feed cable, oversize for my job so it's stable, I have no idea.
 

Welder Dave

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If the Esab was basically a newer Linde they are very nice Mig machines. Did it have inductance control? Most Linde's did and you could adjust the arc however you wanted it.
 

LCA078

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Sep 29, 2019
Messages
733
Location
Austin, TX
I guess Miller being one of the largest manufacturers of complex electronic (welding) equipment in the world is just trying to rip people off.
Dave, I'm going to get a bit long-winded here, not to disagree with you, but to explain what I've seen when it comes to the price of electronic repair parts so folks don't think they're getting ripped off per se.

It's easy to think Miller is trying to rip people off but I also think Miller has to cover costs (and still make profit) when stocking one-off, custom parts made many, many years ago. Since yours had the Continental gas engine, I assume it's 1970's machine so maybe one of the original designs? I'm sure Miller went through iterations and "upgraded" bits and pieces that probably included the diodes so the "correct" diodes may be fairly rare stockage. As I said before, stud diodes are pretty common but when you add the pigtail as a custom detail, it changes the equation significantly.

Think back 50 years on this. For a custom diode used on a manufacturing line (i.e. when Miller was actively making/selling the Big 40), Miller would ask a manufacturer to do a run of 80k or so pieces (to make 10k Big 40s plus have another 20k diodes in stock as repair parts, etc.). In addition to setting up the custom line (some custom dies, jigs, etc.), this would include some testing and verification of parts to ensure the 80k worth of parts were meeting spec. The price per custom diode is probably just slightly more expensive than the regular diodes but Miller rightly believes the slight increase in price is justified because it reduces the cost for assembly. To buy the diodes, Miller has to pay cash.

Fast forward 20-30 years when that stash of repair diodes is used up and Miller wants another 30k of those diodes to keep those original, old Big 40s running. What are the odds that original electronics manufacturer hasn't moved operations from the US (or more likely Japan) to China? Are those custom dies still available? Setting up a new line and validating it adds up in costs per part....and Miller again has to pay cash for those diodes knowing they will mostly sit in inventory and trickle down over the next 10-20 years at best. So when the guy in charge of telling Miller when to buy/stock 30k custom diodes that costs Miller $20-30 bucks a piece to make (probably a cool $1M for 30k batch after testing, packaging, shipping, tariffs, etc.), he has to justify to the bean counters why spending $1M of cash today will be profitable for the next 10-20 years instead of putting it in the stock market that will probably generate 3-5x in returns. So the Miller bean counters tell the Repair Parts guy to sell those diodes at 10-20x, or even 50x the manufacturing price to ensure the original investment of $1M is paid back fast. Does the Miller repair parts guy, or even the bean counters, like this math? Probably not but it's also reality.

Now think about this conversation happening for each of the hundreds, if not the thousands, of custom electric bits and pieces Miller's used building all those different models and size of pretty blue spark machines. It's not an easy equation to figure out so the bean counters want to recoup their money fast to avoid risk. For example, what if all those those big 40's get outlawed because of some new emission regulation banning 30+ year old equipment or if there's a new electrical hazard requirement that suddenly makes them "dangerous". Yeah, bean counters are skittish people with their money books so they over compensate with high prices where possible.

Anyway, the point of this long-winded explanation is to show that a guy like Fastline can come in with a better solution for those custom repair diodes using current off-the-shelf parts at a LOT cheaper than Miller ever could. For one, he's just using mass produced parts that have the same specs. Second, he's not doing a lot of testing, marketing, and warranty on those parts so his costs are low. And lastly, he's not having to buy truckloads of diodes at a time, he's just buying standard parts at standard costs when he needs them. And now Fastline just sets up his Tik-tok, Facebook, eBay, Youtube, Amazon, etc. advertising and store fronts for dirt cheap compared to Miller having to use their own expensive brick and mortar warehouses and computer tracking systems.

So while Miller has to charge high prices to even provide those parts for sale, Fastline can come in way lower with a different solution. It appears Miller is trying to rip us off compared to Fastline...but maybe it's also because Miller has to charge those prices just to stay alive. I'm not trying to justify a business ripping off customers, I'm just explaining some of the internal discussions I've dealt with in my many years of making computer chips in a previous life.

Speaking of making profit, I gotta get busy on my side making real profit as sitting here banging on the keyboard isn't doing it ;)
 
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fastline

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I will just inject my spin because, as I mentioned, not my first rodeo. Most people have neither the experience or desire to DIY much in the electronics side, welders are no exception. This means gear is going to go to a repair facility, if not thrown away. You can't order your repair on Amazon! I have personally been a pro wrench so I fully understand warranty stuff! It hurts more than your pocket book, it strains a relationship, and it calls the tech's competence into question, when it may have nothing to do with the labor side. This is why you want vetted parts, not guess work.

Then, me being in business, I can assure you I am totally KIDDING about selling update gear for those. Why? Those welders are old, people don't want to spend a dime, let alone $100, and Dave said himself the repair joint has countless units that customers just left. I would never even recover the hassle in building an ecommerce website, let alone the countless contacts for customer service to teach people how to do the 'update'.

Sometimes I go down a rabbit hole just to prove a point, not that it makes any rational sense! Case and point, my RV water pump stopped working. I realized the micro switch inside was doing its clicky thing as it should, but meter testing was a fail. I dug the actual switch out of the assembly, I was in luck, it was a standard Omron switch. Ordered 2 for $10. New pump is $200. 99% of people would NOT go through this hassle even if I sold them the part! It's pretty technical work to get to the switch, and then I had to tune the pressure relief!
 

Welder Dave

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Oct 11, 2014
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The diodes went up about 2 1/2 times in price with a new part number. Maybe they are an improved diode common on newer machines. I don't know but even the shop thought they were way too expensive. I'm sure Miller could source cheaper diodes if they wanted to. Miller Big 40's were made for decades and there's a lot of them out there. I'm sure they've had upgrades but are still basically the same design. Not as many as Lincoln SA200's but still a very popular welder. The shop I took it to keeps parts machines because they have have a really good business working on older Miller and Lincoln engine drives. They likely bought some of them. They have about 30 machines waiting for repairs in the shop and I'm sure some are waiting for parts that might come from a dead machine that comes in that isn't worth fixing. They try to keep the older machines running rather than scrapping them. Not unlike some older heavy equipment. I'm glad they had another welder for parts.

Especially with older SA200's people collect them and will pay big bucks to restore them and customize them to better than new. It's not unusual for people to have 5 or more of them. Even dead seized machines can bring $1000 or more. There are shops that specialize in rebuilding and restoring them. Big 40's don't have the cult following of SA200's but are still worth trying to keep going especially when considering the price of new welders. Some people do restore them though.

I wish I was close to you guys and you could find less expensive diodes and repair the welder but I'm not. Alternately I wish I could find someone close that could find cheaper diodes. I don't think it does anybody any good telling someone they paid too much to have something repaired/done that was out of their wheelhouse and they could have done it for much less, especially after the fact. What exactly is the point of that?
 

LCA078

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Austin, TX
Seem like a few folks on ebay have already matched the Miller diode specs to regular available diodes. If you're okay with simple unscrew, clean contact areas with scotchbrite, apply a little electrical conductive grease like Alnox, then do it yourself.

In Fastline's previous posting of the parts manual (if that's the correct one), on pages 50-51, it shows item 5 as 037 957 . . . . DIODE, rect 275A 300V RP

Here's an ebay link for $47 each https://www.ebay.com/itm/2338666625...tSIEBzCkpz3n8yM-SYzXBfzdgQ0zERo0aAmv9EALw_wcB

Here's another surplus(??) company link for $33 each https://www.radwell.com/Buy/MILLER ELECTRIC/MILLER ELECTRIC/037-957?_gl=1*12z3kur*_up*MQ..*_gs*MQ..&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr4jSBhCSARIsAOX1E-J8kqs-I2yeteaJQ1wCiku0gYz1h57UoXlCAeYByQUOmW4jErrKASIaAhLJEALw_wcB&gbraid=0AAAAADHiFo_V5Z4nA7WMBTb8VTN3gVaTG


and for the other diode listed as item 27 as 037 956 . . . . DIODE, rect 275A 300V SP

Here's and ebay link for $45 each. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1335607548...hR437LV1aeD-7rqQfLkiElAfNQMJ3SohRbqJ30gBxvw8w


Radwell doesn't have any of these in stock.
 
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fastline

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
1,225
Location
OK
The diodes went up about 2 1/2 times in price with a new part number. Maybe they are an improved diode common on newer machines. I don't know but even the shop thought they were way too expensive. I'm sure Miller could source cheaper diodes if they wanted to. Miller Big 40's were made for decades and there's a lot of them out there. I'm sure they've had upgrades but are still basically the same design. Not as many as Lincoln SA200's but still a very popular welder. The shop I took it to keeps parts machines because they have have a really good business working on older Miller and Lincoln engine drives. They likely bought some of them. They have about 30 machines waiting for repairs in the shop and I'm sure some are waiting for parts that might come from a dead machine that comes in that isn't worth fixing. They try to keep the older machines running rather than scrapping them. Not unlike some older heavy equipment. I'm glad they had another welder for parts.

Especially with older SA200's people collect them and will pay big bucks to restore them and customize them to better than new. It's not unusual for people to have 5 or more of them. Even dead seized machines can bring $1000 or more. There are shops that specialize in rebuilding and restoring them. Big 40's don't have the cult following of SA200's but are still worth trying to keep going especially when considering the price of new welders. Some people do restore them though.

I wish I was close to you guys and you could find less expensive diodes and repair the welder but I'm not. Alternately I wish I could find someone close that could find cheaper diodes. I don't think it does anybody any good telling someone they paid too much to have something repaired/done that was out of their wheelhouse and they could have done it for much less, especially after the fact. What exactly is the point of that?
All sorts of answers. The reality is Miller is having those diodes made for $2-3 each. You really have to realize the full business circle. Part of that price gouging is incentive to walk away and buy new, BUT the parts are still available, which makes people smile. That's why CAT and Deere rule in some heavy sectors.

You wanted it fixed, it got fixed, it's life. Sorry if I offended, I just noticed the diode thing and I also realize we can't all know what certain parts 'should' cost. I just wanted to know more. My idea of a module upgrade probably would NOT sit well with dealers, techs, or even owners, because you then bastardize the rig! I too see guys slicking them out, and probably want that original look.

All you can do it run it!
 
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