mitch504
Senior Member
I missed how the subject came up, I guess, but I have had trouble with Wix on Cat and Komatsu; they seem to work well with everything else.
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Cat 951-C in my sights
- Thread starter Nitelite
- Start date
I missed how the subject came up, I guess, but I have had trouble with Wix on Cat and Komatsu; they seem to work well with everything else.
d9gdon
Senior Member
i just happened to notice his aftermarket filter in the pics Mitch...and thought about trouble I'd had in the past.
Nitelite, those o-rings in the transfer pump might need to be a better design than the cheap Chinese ones from the local auto parts store. Not trying to panic, just need to scrutinize them if not comparable to OEM specs.
Nitelite
Senior Member
Cat fuel filter
The new fuel filter going back on the machine, as you see it laying on my work bench is Cat.
If you will remember at the start of this thread, I mentioned that the
As you can see it laying on my work bench in the pictures, the new fuel filter is Cat.
Its too cold outside today to work on the machine. It is supposed to be 40 degrees tomorrow. I think that I'll wait to change the filter, get it primed and check for leaks. If the china o rings don't do the job it is only a five bolt job to change them out.
The new fuel filter going back on the machine, as you see it laying on my work bench is Cat.
If you will remember at the start of this thread, I mentioned that the
As you can see it laying on my work bench in the pictures, the new fuel filter is Cat.
Its too cold outside today to work on the machine. It is supposed to be 40 degrees tomorrow. I think that I'll wait to change the filter, get it primed and check for leaks. If the china o rings don't do the job it is only a five bolt job to change them out.
Nitelite
Senior Member
I just couldn't stand it
After reading the last two post I braved the cold, changed the fuel filter and cleaned the sediment bowl. When I turned the fuel valve back on at the tank the sediment bowl started pouring fuel. I think that I might have tightened the bail too tight and the o ring either distorted or rolled out of place. Now, with the new yellow cat filter installation there has been a metamorphosis. If I can stop the tiger **** leak without too much trouble tomorrow, all will be well. I sure will be glad when spring comes!
After reading the last two post I braved the cold, changed the fuel filter and cleaned the sediment bowl. When I turned the fuel valve back on at the tank the sediment bowl started pouring fuel. I think that I might have tightened the bail too tight and the o ring either distorted or rolled out of place. Now, with the new yellow cat filter installation there has been a metamorphosis. If I can stop the tiger **** leak without too much trouble tomorrow, all will be well. I sure will be glad when spring comes!
Nitelite
Senior Member
Thanks for the reply nicky 68a! As long as we have more good days than bad days we are doing ok. When our equipment causes us grief, that is not really a bad day, that is just life. When our family and children are sick or not healthy, that is a bad day.
I primed the fuel system on the 951 today and it fired right up. The leak at the sediment bowl, I think, was just due to my over tightening it. The re build job on the transfer pump seems to be working ok with no leaks but the new maintenance meter leaks really bad. The leak is coming from the plastic window on the meter, same place the old one was leaking. Actually it is a used meter. I paid forty five bucks for it plus freight. It got too cold and too dark on me again. That is a fix for another day.
I primed the fuel system on the 951 today and it fired right up. The leak at the sediment bowl, I think, was just due to my over tightening it. The re build job on the transfer pump seems to be working ok with no leaks but the new maintenance meter leaks really bad. The leak is coming from the plastic window on the meter, same place the old one was leaking. Actually it is a used meter. I paid forty five bucks for it plus freight. It got too cold and too dark on me again. That is a fix for another day.
Nitelite
Senior Member
Need help with fuel leak problem.
OK, now it is a day later. Does anyone know if the maintenance meter that is mounted to the face of the transfer pump on my 951C is supposed to fill up inside and actually run in diesel fuel? I thought that I replaced the transfer pump shaft seals facing in the correct direction. Now I am doubting myself. I am posting the pump break down from the parts manual hoping for your feedback. I think that I might have one of the seals listed as part # 6 in backwards causing more pressure on the meter than it should have. If so, that would explain my fuel leak from the meter window.
Also, on the seal that is shown as part # 17. As I see it, the pictured rubber sealing lip is not facing the direction from which the pressure is coming from. What am I not seeing or understanding when I look at seal # 17 in the schematic ?
After really thinking about the seals and how they are arranged and situated in the transfer pump, if they are not installed facing the right direction, or if they fail, the pump could easily inject a steady stream of diesel fuel directly into the crank case via the geared pump shaft.
As far as how the seals came out of the pump, I can't rely on that. It was leaking when I bought it and I am not the first one to be working on the leaky gage problem. If it turns out to be a backwards seal I need to correct it. If the problem is indeed poor design of the meter and leaky window, I can machine a dummy meter with no window to replace it. For those in the know, your help and experience will be appreciated.
After studying the schematic it appears that the double #6 seals install as I have drawn by hand and posted. If my drawing is correct, then I do have a seal in backwards.
As far as seal # 17 goes, It seems to me that the rubber lip should face the pump gears and oppose the pressure. If indeed the schematic is right, then I have that one in backwards also.
lastly, what kind of sealer can be used (conservatively) on the machined surfaces as they are bolted together with no gasket and there is no gasket called for. I know that I don't need any of the sealer to migrate into the injection pump. I tried Permatex Form A Gasket. It is supposed to stand up to gasoline and diesel fuel, but diesel fuel will dissolve it on contact.
OK, now it is a day later. Does anyone know if the maintenance meter that is mounted to the face of the transfer pump on my 951C is supposed to fill up inside and actually run in diesel fuel? I thought that I replaced the transfer pump shaft seals facing in the correct direction. Now I am doubting myself. I am posting the pump break down from the parts manual hoping for your feedback. I think that I might have one of the seals listed as part # 6 in backwards causing more pressure on the meter than it should have. If so, that would explain my fuel leak from the meter window.
Also, on the seal that is shown as part # 17. As I see it, the pictured rubber sealing lip is not facing the direction from which the pressure is coming from. What am I not seeing or understanding when I look at seal # 17 in the schematic ?
After really thinking about the seals and how they are arranged and situated in the transfer pump, if they are not installed facing the right direction, or if they fail, the pump could easily inject a steady stream of diesel fuel directly into the crank case via the geared pump shaft.
As far as how the seals came out of the pump, I can't rely on that. It was leaking when I bought it and I am not the first one to be working on the leaky gage problem. If it turns out to be a backwards seal I need to correct it. If the problem is indeed poor design of the meter and leaky window, I can machine a dummy meter with no window to replace it. For those in the know, your help and experience will be appreciated.
After studying the schematic it appears that the double #6 seals install as I have drawn by hand and posted. If my drawing is correct, then I do have a seal in backwards.
As far as seal # 17 goes, It seems to me that the rubber lip should face the pump gears and oppose the pressure. If indeed the schematic is right, then I have that one in backwards also.
lastly, what kind of sealer can be used (conservatively) on the machined surfaces as they are bolted together with no gasket and there is no gasket called for. I know that I don't need any of the sealer to migrate into the injection pump. I tried Permatex Form A Gasket. It is supposed to stand up to gasoline and diesel fuel, but diesel fuel will dissolve it on contact.
DMiller
Senior Member
Looking at the expanded(magnified) view for #6 yes they are in correctly, as to the meter running in fuel, it will need to be lubricated by design whether by installed lube or by the fuel. I would have considered seal #17 to be the seal that stops the fuel from entering there with that one steel lip to inside or pumpside.
Look up Loctite products line for a form in place liquid gasket instead of a gasket sealant. Allis used a sealer as that instead of gaskets on those parts that were clearance intolerant, Cat most likely has their own.
Look up Loctite products line for a form in place liquid gasket instead of a gasket sealant. Allis used a sealer as that instead of gaskets on those parts that were clearance intolerant, Cat most likely has their own.
Nitelite,
I ran into a similar issue on my '63 955H. A previous owner had removed the meter and sealed up the hole with rtv or something. The reason it was removed is that the bolt hole mounts for the meter had broken out. It started leaking on me and I couldn't get enough sealant into the mounting area. I pulled it apart, cut about a 1/2 inch off the drive shaft for the meter, used a combination of something like jb weld with high temp rtv behind it to seal the hole off. This has worked well so far. I have learned that not having a protective screen on the sides of the engine will allow the only stick within 25 feet of the loader to hit the small fuel sediment bowl and knock it off. I lost one that way, but Thompson Cat was able to get me another one at a reasonable price.
I ran into a similar issue on my '63 955H. A previous owner had removed the meter and sealed up the hole with rtv or something. The reason it was removed is that the bolt hole mounts for the meter had broken out. It started leaking on me and I couldn't get enough sealant into the mounting area. I pulled it apart, cut about a 1/2 inch off the drive shaft for the meter, used a combination of something like jb weld with high temp rtv behind it to seal the hole off. This has worked well so far. I have learned that not having a protective screen on the sides of the engine will allow the only stick within 25 feet of the loader to hit the small fuel sediment bowl and knock it off. I lost one that way, but Thompson Cat was able to get me another one at a reasonable price.
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Nitelite
Senior Member
Thanks for the post dhutch. I ordered more seals for the transfer pump and rebuilt it for the second time. I did have a seal in backwards and when I purchased the machine there was also the same seal installed backwards.
When all is said and done there should be no fuel at the meter. The outboard seal at the meter if installed backwards will cause the meter to fill up with fuel and leak around the plastic window. It seems like the Cat manual calls for the seal to be installed facing the wrong direction. I have no more fuel leak at the meter at this time, however, it looks like it might be seeping ever so slightly from where the two machined surfaces bolt together. I bought the sealer that Cat recommends for that purpose and used it on the machined surface. Expensive stuff too. The seeping is so slight that it takes more than an hour to detect. I did order a third, extra set of seals, just in case..............
I also ordered the sediment bowl seals and stopped that leak. At the same time I replaced the fuel shut off valve at the tank to stop a leak at that location.
Next job will be to remove the hood and pre combustion chambers in order to replace the large o rings in the engine head to stop a coolant leak. #2 chamber is the leaker and it looks like the exhaust manifold might have to come off to get access to that one.
I have the engine side covers and you can bet they will be mounted on the machine before I start working with it. Amazing where those little sticks will end up.
Have a nice day and merry Christmas dhutch!
When all is said and done there should be no fuel at the meter. The outboard seal at the meter if installed backwards will cause the meter to fill up with fuel and leak around the plastic window. It seems like the Cat manual calls for the seal to be installed facing the wrong direction. I have no more fuel leak at the meter at this time, however, it looks like it might be seeping ever so slightly from where the two machined surfaces bolt together. I bought the sealer that Cat recommends for that purpose and used it on the machined surface. Expensive stuff too. The seeping is so slight that it takes more than an hour to detect. I did order a third, extra set of seals, just in case..............
I also ordered the sediment bowl seals and stopped that leak. At the same time I replaced the fuel shut off valve at the tank to stop a leak at that location.
Next job will be to remove the hood and pre combustion chambers in order to replace the large o rings in the engine head to stop a coolant leak. #2 chamber is the leaker and it looks like the exhaust manifold might have to come off to get access to that one.
I have the engine side covers and you can bet they will be mounted on the machine before I start working with it. Amazing where those little sticks will end up.
Have a nice day and merry Christmas dhutch!
Nitelite
Senior Member
:bash Pain, despair, and agony on me. Deep dark depression and total misery. If it weren't for bad luck Id have no luck at all. Pain despair and agony on me. :Banghead
Just kidding, I am the luckiest guy in the world, but I did just spend four days up a ladder, standing on my head, begging those exhaust manifold bolts not to break off in the engine head. Even with all of the heat and begging nineteen out of twenty six broke off in the head anyway. What else can you expect from a 1971 model? All bolts now have been removed and replaced with grade 5. I now have the quietest dump truck in town. Tomorrow I think I'll de grease the engine and pressure wash it. Then put it on jack stands to rebuild the brakes.
Next project, on the Cat 951C, I have to replace the large pre combustion chamber o rings where they fit into the engine head. The coolant leak is coming from #2 cylinder. To get that chamber out it looks like the exhaust manifold might need to be removed. Does anyone know about that for sure?
I also have on my list pulling the winch off of the back of the D4E dozer to find out why the power takeoff going to the winch does not engage. ( does not rotate )
Man, I'll be glad when spring gets here so I can work with the equipment, not on it. I just hope it is ready to go to work by then. :beatsme LOL
Merry Christmas to all!
Just kidding, I am the luckiest guy in the world, but I did just spend four days up a ladder, standing on my head, begging those exhaust manifold bolts not to break off in the engine head. Even with all of the heat and begging nineteen out of twenty six broke off in the head anyway. What else can you expect from a 1971 model? All bolts now have been removed and replaced with grade 5. I now have the quietest dump truck in town. Tomorrow I think I'll de grease the engine and pressure wash it. Then put it on jack stands to rebuild the brakes.
Next project, on the Cat 951C, I have to replace the large pre combustion chamber o rings where they fit into the engine head. The coolant leak is coming from #2 cylinder. To get that chamber out it looks like the exhaust manifold might need to be removed. Does anyone know about that for sure?
I also have on my list pulling the winch off of the back of the D4E dozer to find out why the power takeoff going to the winch does not engage. ( does not rotate )
Man, I'll be glad when spring gets here so I can work with the equipment, not on it. I just hope it is ready to go to work by then. :beatsme LOL
Merry Christmas to all!
DMiller
Senior Member
Honestly most old Ford exhaust bolts broke away when I worked on them years ago regardless how old they were. I was thinking most were grade eight though, Hopefully you put anti-sieze on the bolt threads.
mitch504
Senior Member
Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of them were grade 8 from the factory. They sure were hard to drill when they'd break at the surface. When putting a new manifold on, I got to where I'd cut and break the manifolds into pieces, and screw the bolts out with there chunk of manifold on it. It was a lot easier on the old 404 and 446 IHs.
Oh, and on the never-seize, put it on the shank of the bolt, too. A lot of times they seize into the manifold as hard or harder than in the threads.
Oh, and on the never-seize, put it on the shank of the bolt, too. A lot of times they seize into the manifold as hard or harder than in the threads.
Been keeping up and enjoying your thread, Nitelite. A local dirt contractor did some work back in the late 80's with a Cat 951C for dad. My brother and I were at that impressionable age where we'd get at the end of the driveway looking and listening for the man to come. We'd listen for the deep drone of what I remember was an old GMC, maybe General semi. We could see the big yellow caution light swirling around on top of his cab as it rose above the horizon. On the back of his low boy was a pristine 951C. We'd watch him struggle to get in the gap at the wilderness dad had bought. He did wonders with that 951. Probably much of the reason, years later we wound up with a track loader. Now I feel like I'm living the dream.
Glad to hear you survived that episode awhile back and are healthy enough to do what you're doing. Keep up the good work and look forward to more updates.
Glad to hear you survived that episode awhile back and are healthy enough to do what you're doing. Keep up the good work and look forward to more updates.
Nitelite
Senior Member
Yes boone, I spent hours over a few days reading your thread. That was before I bought the 951C. I also took in consideration the cause of your coolant leak when I noticed the antifreeze standing on the cylinder head. I haven't gotten around to pulling the pre combustion chambers yet, but I sure am praying that it is as simple as the o rings and that it is not a cracked head. You know the feeling. After your saga and engine block replacement, I'll bet the pictures that I posted showing the green antifreeze standing on my 951 engine head even made you cringe. When you have to wait until a machine is near scrap price in order to own it, any major breakdown may indeed make it a scrapper.
boone, reading your thread I envy you. I would have loved to have been able to spend such quality time on a project with my dad such as you and your dad have spent on your machine. Bond with him and enjoy working together all that you can for as long as you can. Had your loader been in perfect shape when you got it, think of the good old times you would have missed working with your dad and family.
I am a 100% disabled veteran and it takes me hours and days to do what I used to do in minutes and hours. Working on and with those old machines keeps me busy. It is either old machines or the old recliner, both smell like diesel fuel now days. LOL
Keep up the good work. I catch up on your updates every time I am on the forum.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, and happy new year!
boone, reading your thread I envy you. I would have loved to have been able to spend such quality time on a project with my dad such as you and your dad have spent on your machine. Bond with him and enjoy working together all that you can for as long as you can. Had your loader been in perfect shape when you got it, think of the good old times you would have missed working with your dad and family.
I am a 100% disabled veteran and it takes me hours and days to do what I used to do in minutes and hours. Working on and with those old machines keeps me busy. It is either old machines or the old recliner, both smell like diesel fuel now days. LOL
Keep up the good work. I catch up on your updates every time I am on the forum.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, and happy new year!
kshansen
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2012
- Messages
- 11,410
- Location
- Central New York, USA
- Occupation
- Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
Nitelite,
Do you have the tool to remove the prechambers? The 5F8353 ?
I could loan you ours for the cost of shipping.
Besides the large oring at the top there are what Cat calls "gaskets" at the bottom, actually shim washers used to properly position the glow plugs to avoid hitting the manifold. I may have a set of these too. Let me know. I am off work till Jan 9th and could check then. They go for $2.00 to $2.20 each.
Do you have the tool to remove the prechambers? The 5F8353 ?
I could loan you ours for the cost of shipping.
Besides the large oring at the top there are what Cat calls "gaskets" at the bottom, actually shim washers used to properly position the glow plugs to avoid hitting the manifold. I may have a set of these too. Let me know. I am off work till Jan 9th and could check then. They go for $2.00 to $2.20 each.
Nitelite
Senior Member
Pre chamber tool
Kshansen, I have no idea what the prechamber tool would look like. Can I improvise or make the tool. I would be more than happy to pay shipping cost to borrow your tool, and return it to you. If you need a deposit on your tool, I can do that too. Any special instructions on R and R of the chambers would also be appreciated. I do have the repair manual for the 951C.
I thought that if I reused the old shim washers, (spacers), that they would be the right thickness to properly position the glow plug. If I am wrong about that and it is not a good idea to reuse the old washers, I can purchase the new ones from you, if indeed you do have them, or I can purchase them locally from Off Road. I have read that it is a trial and error process to select the right thickness washer and that they come in three thickness. I hope to pull the chambers when the weather gets a little better but I am in no big hurry either.
I have sent you an e mail and I will wait to hear from you. If you did not get my e mail please let me know.
Thanks for the offer,
[email protected]
Kshansen, I have no idea what the prechamber tool would look like. Can I improvise or make the tool. I would be more than happy to pay shipping cost to borrow your tool, and return it to you. If you need a deposit on your tool, I can do that too. Any special instructions on R and R of the chambers would also be appreciated. I do have the repair manual for the 951C.
I thought that if I reused the old shim washers, (spacers), that they would be the right thickness to properly position the glow plug. If I am wrong about that and it is not a good idea to reuse the old washers, I can purchase the new ones from you, if indeed you do have them, or I can purchase them locally from Off Road. I have read that it is a trial and error process to select the right thickness washer and that they come in three thickness. I hope to pull the chambers when the weather gets a little better but I am in no big hurry either.
I have sent you an e mail and I will wait to hear from you. If you did not get my e mail please let me know.
Thanks for the offer,
[email protected]
Nitelite, I also have the pre chamber tool if you'd like to borrow it. I could meet you in Clarksville, just let me know the night prior. I work on Fort Campbell, so I'm over that way on a daily basis. I figured I'd need it one day for the 955H and got it at a good deal.
Nitelite
Senior Member
Kshansen, as it turns out, it will be easier for me to connect up with dhutch in Clarksville TN. I also frequent Fort Campbell and shop at the commissary and post exchange there. I live less than thirty miles from the post. dhutch, if you will email me at the address posted above, we might can exchange contact information and connect up at Fort Campbell sometime after Christmas or even after the first of the new year. Like I mentioned, I am in no hurry and will wait on some warmer days before I attempt the pre chamber o ring change out job.
Kshansen, thanks so much for your offer of the tool loan. I could still use any and all tips and pointers on how to go about the R&R of the chambers. I would guess, from reading some of your prior post, that you are much farther north from the state of Tennessee.
It was a good day when I first discovered this forum!
Kshansen, thanks so much for your offer of the tool loan. I could still use any and all tips and pointers on how to go about the R&R of the chambers. I would guess, from reading some of your prior post, that you are much farther north from the state of Tennessee.
It was a good day when I first discovered this forum!
Nitelite
Senior Member
Ken, Thank you so much for your offer to loan me your pre-chamber tool. As you have noticed on the forum, there was another offer of the tool loan from a local Cat owner. After your description of the tool I looked up the tool # on the web. Off Road Equipment has the tool offered on ebay for $12.00 with free shipping. That is a no brainer and the best way to go, with much less effort on the part of anyone. I certainly thank you for the offer and the advice, you helped me more than you know!. I will also have Off Road send me four each of the different size gaskets in the same order as the tool. Again, many thanks and merry Christmas to you and yours!
dhutch, thank you for your offer also, maybe we could meet for lunch one day at Fort Campbell and discuss the old cats. I have never tried the southern cooked meat & three on post. I hear that it is pretty good. I do eat at the Sportsmans Lodge every once and awhile.
To learn more about me do a google search for,
James M. Cripps agent orange
dhutch, thank you for your offer also, maybe we could meet for lunch one day at Fort Campbell and discuss the old cats. I have never tried the southern cooked meat & three on post. I hear that it is pretty good. I do eat at the Sportsmans Lodge every once and awhile.
To learn more about me do a google search for,
James M. Cripps agent orange