Cat 299d2xhp fuel pump no fuel through

[Nige]

This one. . . . maybe?

Plunger return spring for some Denso HP5 pumps - Diesel Injection Pumps

Plunger spring for some Denso HP5 pumps

injectionpumps.co.uk

As we would say, that llooks awfully adjacent.....
And the best part for the OP is that the seller is in the UK.

 

[Wilj]

A quick update. Machine is in main dealer. They’ve put new pump on, looking at putting on fuel lines, injectors and the fuel relief valve as they aren’t getting correct pressure and have found contaminated fuel with metal.
I have asked if they put the engine onto correct timing and I was told this isn’t crucial as it’s a common rail engine. I feel they simply took old pump off and put new one on without double checking timing.

 

[Nige]

I have asked if they put the engine onto correct timing and I was told this isn’t crucial as it’s a common rail engine.

Do you fancy asking them why they did not follow the Cat service manual procedure and time the engine before removing the pump.? Just because it's a common rail engine doesn't mean there isn't a procedure to follow to R&I the HP fuel pump. See Step 1.

IIRC the pump has to be "timed" with respect to the crankshaft in order to correctly position the rotating parts of the pump and balance the force necessary to rotate it against the pressure pulses of the injectors opening/closing with the mechanical balance of the rest of the engine rotating parts such as crankshaft, pistons/rods, etc ,etc.

 

[Wilj]

Do you fancy asking them why they did not follow the Cat service manual procedure and time the engine before removing the pump.? Just because it's a common rail engine doesn't mean there isn't a procedure to follow to R&I the HP fuel pump. See Step 1.

IIRC the pump has to be "timed" with respect to the crankshaft in order to correctly position the rotating parts of the pump and balance the force necessary to rotate it against the pressure pulses of the injectors opening/closing with the mechanical balance of the rest of the engine rotating parts such as crankshaft, pistons/rods, etc ,etc.

 

[Wilj]

This is the last report. They simply said the engine was already timed correctly. I’m guessing they took pump off by seeing it was in the markings without checking which cylinder was TDC.

 

[Nige]

They simply said the engine was already timed correctly. I’m guessing they took pump off by seeing it was in the markings without checking which cylinder was TDC.

That's a bit different to saying "this isn’t crucial as it’s a common rail engine".

The service report mentions nothing about timng the engine before removing the pump. Simply says "original HP pump stripped, found damage to various components, etc, etc......"

If they did not time the engine and pump during disassembly there is still the opportunity to do it when everything is reassembled. AFAIK a new pump is supplied with the shaft locked in the correct position to be installed straight on to an engine that is already timed.

 

[Wilj]

That's a bit different to saying "this isn’t crucial as it’s a common rail engine".

The service report mentions nothing about timng the engine before removing the pump. Simply says "original HP pump stripped, found damage to various components, etc, etc......"

If they did not time the engine and pump during disassembly there is still the opportunity to do it when everything is reassembled. AFAIK a new pump is supplied with the shaft locked in the correct position to be installed straight on to an engine that is already timed.

They told me they took old pump off and put new pump on and tried it with no success. Also said where’s the key but there wasn’t one when I took inspection plate off. There wasn’t even a notch on the cog for one to go into.

 

[Nige]

They told me they took old pump off and put new pump on and tried it with no success. Also said where’s the key but there wasn’t one when I took inspection plate off. There wasn’t even a notch on the cog for one to go into.

I would go back to them and ask why they are not following their OEM's published procedure to R&I the pump.? I'm not saying it will make the difference between the engine starting or not, but if there is a procedure they should be sticking to it.

Tell them this, and make it appear that you are a Jedi master - Despite supplying a "constant" flow of fuel, the HP pump is still a piston pump which delivers fuel in pulses. The pump must be timed so the pulses coincide with the injection events as triggered by the engine ECM. Because said injection events are tied to the position of the rotating parts of the engine therefore the HP fuel pump has to be timed to the engine. QED.

 

[ozarkag]

These engines will absolutely not run if timed incorrectly. Not only are delivery pulses matched to need as Nige points out. the HP5 pump on tier 4 final V3800/ C3.8 does not have a typical Scv, it pulses the output solenoid on the top of the pump to control flow and pressure. The  only way the ecm knows when to pulse is from pump timing, there is no sensor on the pump itself.
One tooth off time and it will start and die. One off the other way and no start at all. If you/ they did not mark the pump gear at disassembly they will have to remove from the cover and retime from scratch.

 

[Nige]

Thanks for confirming that. I was beginning to doubt myself.

 

[HarleyHappy]

Sounds like they just caused another few hundred in gaskets and another grand in labor. Have to drain coolant and take pump off and everything, to get the front cover off. Now it’s sounding like an extra couple of grand.

 

[Nige]

Any update on this one.? Enquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Wilj]

Hi Nige,

They ended up putting new fuel pump, fuel rail, injectors, pipe etc to no avail. Then went back to “check” timing via taking rocket cover off iirc. Anyway the report said it starts and runs but there was a plastic Y junction water pipe that started leaking when put back together so now waiting for that to come in.
Was supposed to be in 10 days ago but now it’s on the 21st this month apparently.

Got a new 275xe and gb124 on order which is coming in first week of June so not happy been down a machine loosing work and income.

 

[Nige]

Then went back to “check” timing via taking rocket cover off

Well surprise surprise............
Bullshitters of the highest order IMHO, which as an ex-employee of the company pains me to say.

 

[Wilj]

Well surprise surprise............
Bullshitters of the highest order IMHO, which as an ex-employee of the company pains me to say.

What’s my options as they never timed it correctly from the beginning. I’ve a new one coming but if this is the way they they will treat me going forward I’m not sure about keeping it

 

[Nige]

What’s my options as they never timed it correctly from the beginning.

They would have to pull off the front cover to ensure that the engine was timed correctly before installing the pump. That should be at their expense not yours, seeing as it would not have been necessary if they followed service manual procedures.

I dunno about others but IMO you have good grounds to challenge the invoice. Who knows how many parts they installed that were unnecessary in their attempts to get the engine to run.?

 

[HarleyHappy]

That’s why I hate anyone else working on my stuff.
They usually throw the damn parts cannon at it, knowing that they won’t have to pay for it. Not to mention that they mark the part up 25%, that really chaps my ass.

 

[92U 3406]

Why's it so hard to have integrity these days?

 

[Nige]

Why's it so hard to have integrity these days?

Especially when it's a dealer for the OEM. I know everyone makes mistakes, and in this particular case it ought not to be too difficult to hold their hands up and admoit that they got it wrong.

 

[92U 3406]

Especially when it's a dealer for the OEM. I know everyone makes mistakes, and in this particular case it ought not to be too difficult to hold their hands up and admoit that they got it wrong.

We had a job go wrong recently and the first thing we did was tell the customer what happened and that they will not be billed for the mistake. It sucks to lose money but I think you have a much better chance at retaining a customer when you're straight up and fair with them. It shows you run the business with integrity and that you stand behind your work.