Case 580E - Trans or Hydraulic Problem? Won't move.

[Farmer20]

Hi folks. I had a username on here a year or two ago but have gotten a new computer and lost that info. I am having an equipment issue with the shuttle drive system or hydraulic system on my backhoe and would like your feedback. I have searched the forum and cannot find what I need in an existing post. Please redirect me if I have missed it as I don't want to clutter the page.

I have a Case 580 Super E Backhoe, 4x4, with the 4-in-1 bucket and Extend-A-Hoe. Machine hours are just under 7,000. It was used by a paving company since new and the front end loader has numerous welds from what I imagine would be someone ramming old asphalt to tear it up. It does NOT have the strongest hydraulic system. The hoe will not lift the machine's rear end unless you really push it, and then it leaks back down really fast. This gives you an idea of the machine's general condition.

I have owned this backhoe for one year. Bought it for $10,500 last winter. It has always been a bit sluggish. Never wants to climb a slight hill, even in low gears. Engine runs fine, does not bog down. Seems to me like a clutch or something is slipping but I don't know anything about the internals on these units. Here are a list of the symptoms:

1. Machine is sluggish for 1 year. Doesn't like going up hills.
2. Hydraulic filter light recently comes on and off upon first few minutes of driving.
3. Machine has more power once hydraulics warm up.
4. Hydraulic fluid is smelly. Like burnt metal.
5. Machine began making a CRASHING sound internally (sounded like drivetrain beneath my feet) while moving stacks of wood with the front end loader--as if it were popping out of gear. When weight was removed from loader, it ran fine again.
6. Popping and grinding continued for another 30 minutes of operation, especially when under load (pushing with loader or trying to lift something with loader)
7. Conditions worsened yesterday and the machine now fails to move at all. When you engage the shuttle, even in different gears, it pops a bit, some metal crashes internally, and then it doesn't move. Sounds pretty bad to me.
8. It seems to do better when the hydraulic reservoir is completely full. The machine leaks, and it seems to me that as it leaks fluid from the loader cylinders the performance of the drivetrain suffers.

I have never changed the hydraulic fluid or the hydraulic filter.

I have a guy from an hour or so away who has a heavy equipment repair side business. He says he worked on Cats his whole life and has certifications, etc. Seems like a good guy and has started an LLC to repair heavy equipment. Said he will look at it for $75/hr. Has a truck with all the necessary equipment. He is retiring from the military and wants to start this equipment repair business as his retirement income, so I am assuming he isn't some joker looking to rip me off. Being that I only use the machine for jobs around the farm, I am trying to not spend a million dollars fixing it, but from what I have heard these types of repairs can get into the ten thousand dollar range... Ugh.

Thoughts on what the problem could be? Thoughts on using a private mechanic?

 

[Catback]

Clearly you have hydraulic issues. Maintenance on equipment is key.

I would start with a hydraulic oil change and flush, and filter change, and repair the hydraulic leaks. If you still have problems, you may have blockage, or the pump is worn.

Backhoes are not built (geared) to climb steep hills quickly...especially an older ill-maintained one.

If the mechanic is good and honest, and you are unwilling or unable...why not?

 

[Farmer20]

I hadn't changed the fluid because the man I bought it from has just done it, and I have only put maybe 40 hours on the machine in the whole year I've owned it. I will get that done as soon as possible. Know of any guides which would tell how to do that hydraulic flush properly?

I know what you mean about backhoes not climbing hills, but I have driven several backhoes in my life for work and they usually go a lot better uphill than this one does. I mean, a whole lot better. This one wants to give up when going uphill.

The engine still runs and the other systems still work. This being said, can I tow this machine on its wheels in neutral to a better location for working on it? I heard a man once say not to tow a backhoe in neutral. Is that true? Thanks

 

[Shimmy1]

By the sounds of what you're describing, I don't believe I would waste oil and filters without some investigative work. Sounds like torque converter or transmission to me. Maybe some other 580 gurus will get after it here for you. As far as towing it, just have engine running and get it where you need to.

 

[alrman]

Welcome back Farmer20!
I think you may have a combination of problems.
1) Shuttle is likely toasted & may require overhaul - common issue with this is a broken Fwd clutch pack belville washer
2) Torque convertor - this usually goes out in sympathy with the shuttle, or is the cause for the shuttle failure.
- (you have checked the shuttle oil level with engine idling? Low oil = no drive)
3) Transaxle issues - with the description of "noises" you have described - draining the oil & looking for broken teeth should be the first thing to look at.
4) Hydraulic power - could be the pump or simply low relief pressure - hydraulic tests are required.
5) Hydraulic oil light - filter in by pass when oil is cold - changing it may help, especially if it hasn't been done for a long time.
- BTW - changing your Hyd oil & filter won't fix your drive problems.......

 

[Farmer20]

Thanks alrman. That's helpful.

With the possibility of having so many problems, most of which sound fairly involved/expensive to fix, how should I feel about having a single mechanic come to the machine on-site to fix it? Are these issues something that one mechanic can fix alone without being inside of a proper shop? Is there any advantage to taking the machine to the Case dealer's shop to have it assessed and fixed there, or is the smaller on-site mechanic a good way to go? Any insight you guys have would be helpful. I haven't gotten any major drivetrain work done on a machine like this before, so I don't know what to expect or what these type of repairs require as far as tools/space/time.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[Bill Smith]

Farmer20 I know this not what you want to hear but you are probably looking at another 10 grand , Now you have 20 grand tied up in a old machine .The machine was probably worth 10 grand when it was moving but it is only scrap now . I know it would be foolish to trust what a hour meter shows on a machine , but it showed 7000 hrs . My SE had 7000 actual hrs as well and needed a over haul of the shuttle plus plus plus , as well 2nd gear broke . I opted not to put the money back into it .It was was still moving and still worth 10 grand .If there was ever a way to check actual hours on a backhoe , I would not buy one with over 5000 hours .That being said you might as well spend 30 grand and get a good machine .I now some you guys will go gung ho on fixing old equipment but were do you draw the line on what you spend .
Just my personal opinion

 

[Farmer20]

I know what you mean. I bought this one because I needed a limp-around type of machine for doing easy chores. I thought that on the level of duty I was using it, I would have a low chance of stressing the old parts and causing any major issues. My buddy bought one years ago with 6000hrs and replaced the engine, and he never had any problems with the driveline. His wasn't as sluggish as mine, but I thought it would be OK. Wrong...

And yes, I agree, I've got to think about drawing the line on what to spend... I mean, I could sell the old Cummins engine for a grand--maybe. It has some wear and blowby for sure. I could part the rest of the machine out (4-in-1, hoe, maybe a few tire/misc parts) for another $2k over a year or two. Then scrap the 10000 pound chassis for $600... So, that's about $3,600 back to me... maybe... and a lot of work. So, that makes the machine a $6,400 loss that never actually did the job I bought it for (to dig footings/infrastructure for my house here). Then I'd have to spend $20-30k on a newer machine. Not worth it I don't think. The $25k for a solid machine plus the $7k loss is $32k invested vs. $21k to fix the drivetrain and keep the machine.

If I fix it up, have a much more reliable machine that I can maintain in the future, and hopefully go another 300 hours without another major issue. In a few years I could replace the engine, maybe do some other work, and then it would be a really solid unit. This would then become a shed machine that I would have to keep on the farm for the next 40 years, and, in the shed, I imagine it will last that long???

Value is a hard thing to define when looking at these old units. Putting money in to older metal, one will never get the money out like they could from a newer unit. But, I like having a backhoe, and I don't want to sell the machine for junk, so rather than lose $7k in a flatout sell of the scrap/parts, I think that spending $10k to have a more reliable machine that I can know and maintain from here may be the way to go. Being that I hardly use it for work off the farm at all, it's not like it's a big money-maker or anything. It's more like a friend I call when I need help on something.

Thoughts? Am I thinking about this the wrong way? I am open to suggestions. I am rather new to buying equipment compared to most of you guys, being that I am only 27 years old. Since no one else in my family does farming or messes with these machines I don't have many people to ask. If my dad knew about machines he would have probably told me not to buy this one! HA!

 

[alrman]

Don't jump to conclusions. Get the machine assessed by someone who knows something about Case. Prioritize what needs to be repaired first to get you going & what can be repaired a little later in time.
ie - shuttle may just need some oil in it to make it go - for the time being :beatsme
- transaxle maybe ok?? noise may be from universal joint? :beatsme

Taking it to a dealer is unrealistic - it will cost twice as much to repair.
All those things that I listed can be repaired on-site, or the components like shuttle & transaxle, can be removed on-site & repaired in a workshop & refitted.

stay calm ...... it's only money ....

 

[melben]

Start the machine, raise it off the ground and with the transmission and shuttle in gear see if the driveshaft is turning and the rear wheels stay still. From your description I'm gonna agree with alr, I'm bettin on a ring and pinion or trans axle related issue, reason being, the grinding noise you experienced during the failure. I have repaired many and the only thing I could think of related to the noise if in the shuttle would be a planetary drum failure. Usually the shuttles just give up in fwd and have normal reverse. Planetary failures are rare.

 

[Bill Smith]

Fair enough Farmer good point .Keep us posted

 

[El Hombre]

Get a factory service manual; first thing every hoe owner should do. There will be diagnostic tests, how to R&R something, just what you need to know. The manual will be 10% of what it's going to cost to have someone over to do the testing. Just being able to find the inspection covers to eyeball the gears is priceless.....

 

[bob_00]

those have a borg warner shuttle if my old memory is good rebuil kit for this shuttle is like 300$ they are common failure this is wath i found in mine

 

[bob_00]

but to make sure wath it is raise the machine put it in gear but nutral on the shuttle shut it off go under and spin the drive shaft by hand you wil see if the transaxel work find

 

[Farmer20]

Thanks for all the help on this. After two visits from a mechanic we have found the problem. Took the back wheels off and dropped the rear end. The noise was coming from the back left drive shaft in the axle. When the machine wanted to move forward it was stopping, clunking, and that tire specifically was giving out. When we tore the rear end apart we found that the main ring and pinion gearbox (mechanic has called it a couple different things... basically, to me, it looks like the center of the rear end) has some sort of bearing that has come apart and more or less destroyed it. Teeth are missing in that area, etc. The driver's side shaft is also missing teeth and may have broken first, causing the entire center of the rear end to suffer damages. Problem now becomes that we cannot get parts. The left shaft is listed at $1,050 by my local case dealer, but they "can't get one." They have said not to even try a dealer for it. But I want to call around the local states anyway. The center component of the rear end is about $2000, and they CAN get that. They said that these rear end shafts are known to be common failures in this machine.

Any advice on this? The machine is basically totalled at this point but I have no choice but to fix it. I'm already in $10,500 on purchasing, and $1,000 on mechanic labor to diagnose this problem. Junking it now I would lose everything. I am just praying that if I can fix this problem I can either a) keep it for a year or two and then sell it; or, b) sell it once repaired for whatever I can get and buy a lower-hour machine.

I would like to rebuild the entire rear end. Am I thinking correctly here? Maybe I can find a junkyard that has a whole rear end for sale? Does anyone have any resources for this or other ways to find parts? The mechanic told me he will send me the part numbers. It is a CASE 580E 4x4 Construction King. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. I really would like to save this thing's life if possible, but if it sounds like a lost cause feel free to tell me. Like I said, I am new to this so I'm not sure the feasibility of finding these parts and having them actually work.

Thanks

 

[Bill Smith]

Some times you don't have a choice . At this point I would probably fix the machine . Like I said in my last reply its worth lots more money running and moving .
My 580SE was pretty well bullet proof , but there comes a time . If the engine is running strong and the shuttle has good push I would spend the 2 grand on the rear end and find what ever else you need used .Lots of 580 SE scrapers out there . I still like the 580 SE the best
Good luck Farmer

 

[sheepfoot]

Rear end parts

I would also fix it, the E is a good machine and with the options you have with the 4x4/4x1/ extend-a hoe your still not in it that deep. Just ask what the rental cost would be for a month with those options. I looked on broken tractor, they have axle shafts @ 750.00, bull gears @ 525.00, rt and lt side gears @ 335.00, ring and pinion sets @ 550.00, differential cross shafts @ 465.00, spider gears and pins @ 85.00. You need to keep in mind the brake system on your machine also, if the brake housing had a lever above the slave cylinder or just a slave cylinder with a green boot on top, always have the s/n handy along with the trans axle tag info located on the rear of the trans axle, and don't forget to tell the parts guy the machine is 4wd. If you go the trans axle switch out you may have to strip your gear box and housings off your unit along with changing other parts, some do not include the brake guts also. Getting a take out running I would still open it up and check some clearances before installing it just to be sure you are not starting with a problem. This was just one site I picked for parts pricing, there are other sites that offer used parts and non OEM machined parts out there also.

 

[Farmer20]

Great information guys. Thanks. I have called around to a lot of the companies that you guys have PMed me and put up in this thread. I found one company who has low-quality aftermarket parts for extremely cheap, and I may have to go this route. Hopefully if anyone else ever has this problem they can use this info. Here are prices I found yesterday from three different sources:

Parts for 580 Super E Rear End (east coast and central USA)
Part Numbers: A159506 A157462 A153711 A140705 A179107 A156376

Coleman Equip in Kansas: Each axle shaft = $2,100(each) Center Diff Hub (main gearbox) = $2,500
I also need 4 other small parts which are between $2.00 and $150 here. Total would be around $7000 or so for entire rear end assembly NOT including shipping.

Used parts machine in Pennsylvania - 2WD Machine ---- Rear end assembly for sale at $4,000
Not sure if the parts would match for the rear end on my 4x4 machine. Man says his machine has 4000 hours and he will sell me the whole rear assembly for $4,000 and ship it to Roanoke VA (3hours from me) for free with his buddy who will load it for me at his shop. I think that $4000 for a used rear end is expensive. I could buy the two main parts I need brand new OEM for this amount. I would like to replace the other axle shaft, though, being that I don't want it to break as soon as we put everything back together. I plan to get his VIN and have my Case dealer inform me if the parts will match mine. I may then offer him a lower price for these OEM parts. Maybe start at $2000 and see what he says.

Con Equip of New York State: Axle shafts for $455(each) Center Diff Hub (main gearbox) = $550 (these are aftermarket parts)

My total quote for all my parts (aftermarket) is around $1,200. This is half of the cost of one axle shaft at a true OEM parts supplier. Instead of $6-8,000 for parts I would spend about $1,300 total with the cheap stuff.

That being said, cheap stuff won't last. BUT, this machine has 7,500 hours on it. I got the mechanic to look over it really thoroughly. He said, more or less, that he doesn't think it is worth it to pay for brand new OEM parts for what I am using this machine for. Being that I am hardly using it, and keep it on the farm and off the job site, he said that these cheap parts would get it moving around again and I could use it for a while and then pass it on as a parts machine later or sell it to another person who needs an "odd jobs" machine.

Mechanic said that the shuttle is weak, and the hydraulic pump is also weak. I suspect (but do not know this for sure) that this rear-end breakage is a symptom of a deeper problem that I do not yet know about. I don't know what that problem could be, but I suspect that it may exist somewhere in the machine. Prices to truly rebuild the shuttle, rear, and hydraulic pump are out of my range at this point (considering it is just a handy unit and not a money-maker).

Does anyone have experience putting aftermarket parts into a backhoe like this? Do they break right away or can I get 500-1000 gentle hours out of them? Thoughts?

 

[Delmer]

I suspect (but do not know this for sure) that this rear-end breakage is a symptom of a deeper problem that I do not yet know about. I don't know what that problem could be, but I suspect that it may exist somewhere in the machine.


Do they break right away or can I get 500-1000 gentle hours out of them? Thoughts?

You said the bucket has welds all over it, likely from ramming asphalt. There's your problem, you don't have to look any deeper. The abuse was spread over the whole drivetrain, more than the shuttle destroying the axle (some have said that the torque converter and shuttle will kill each other, that's a different story).

With a weak shuttle I wouldn't be surprised if you get another 7,000 hours out of the rear end parts. Put a new TC and shuttle in it and I bet somebody on here could break it in under an hour (either the cheap parts or the abused transmission gears, whichever gives up first)

I would fix it with aftermarket parts, and see if you can manage using it in lower gears to avoid slipping as much as possible. The shuttle sounds like it's in need of a rebuild, so you could save a little time by doing it now, or wait to see that you get the bigger issue fixed before spending more money. I wouldn't worry too much about the hydraulic pump, a gear pump is not as likely to "grenade" and mess up the whole system, and using it another few hundred hours isn't likely to do any more damage than is already done.

Long term, I don't think paying a mechanic to work on an older backhoe is the most economical way to get construction work done.

 

[El Hombre]

Fix it with the cheapest parts. Just don't do the same stupid thing like the DPO; no ramming the bucket into something that doesn't want to move. Sand or gravel, top soil, sure; the bucket will slice thru that. It's the impact that breaks parts, treat it right and it will probably never break those parts in your lifetime...don't know about the rest of the abused parts tho...

DPO-Dreaded Previous Owner