case 580 ck backhoe oil in water issues

[Diggerdozer]

hi Help needed , oil appeared in radiator after stick took out fan belt and bent fan slicing through bottom of radiator.

radiator repaired by Radiator place , then oil appears in water , sump only has black oil in it .

took head off , after much angst realising there was one bolt sitting behind water pump.

Head was fine , head gasket fine as well , head was a little warped but a quick skim and is all gd again , so I have not found the cause for why there is oil in the water ?
I am thinking may be a liner has a small hole and it pushes oil into the jacket ?

any help appreciated , I am trying to clean up after a 300km /hr cyclone rearranged the farm , took 6 hrs to clear a path 700 m long from house to front gate

 

[alrman]

If it is a shuttle shift, there is a transmission oil cooler located in the lower radiator tank.
Sounds like a warranty job

 

[Diggerdozer]

oil cooler

there is a hydraulic cooler tank in the bottom of the radiator, the issue is the pressure the hydraulics work at would blow the cap clean off, where as the radiator became milky and therefore hot but not extreme pressure? am I wrong here?

 

[alrman]

ON the early 580ck, the oil cooler does receive transmission oil at near system pressure 200-300psi (without getting too specific) - so it is possible that it could "blow" the radiator cap off.

 

[Diggerdozer]

I think I have hydraulic oil go through radiator as there are lines that connect up with the pump that drives off the crank shaft ummm I will check tomorrow

but my radiator cap didn't get blown off so ??

 

[Delmer]

but my radiator cap didn't get blown off so ??

That's because you have a SMALL leak.

 

[Diggerdozer]

ok,given we are half way there I am looking to put new rings and bearings in , are these a wet or dry liner engine? as apparently there could be apin hole if wet liner, pushing oil into water jacket , having just refitted the radiator would rather remove all other possibilities , yet I suppose doing that ticks off another option

 

[farmerlund]

If you get a pinhole in the liner the coolant will end up in the oil pan. not oil in radiator. The coolant system has 10-15lbs of pressure when running the crankcase has very little if any 1lb or less.

The coolant will also cut a grove in the side of the piston, if the hole is in that area. (had that happen on a JD) .

I think the other guys are correct, thinking it is coming from a oil cooler somewhere. I am not familiar with that model of machine. does it have an engine oil cooler?
good luck.

 

[Diggerdozer]

it has a hydraulic oil cooler that runs through the bottom of the engine radiator, yet there is no easy way to test what oil it is that is getting into the radiator, so if there is a pin hole in the oil cooler that under pressure from the hydraulic pump pushes oil into the radiator as it would have greater pressure than the radiator , the fan belt was taken out by a stick that also took out the bottom fins in the radiator as well, it was fixed by a radiator shop, it was a hot day which didn't help me noticing it getting hot , head checked and faced all gd head gasket also good

 

[El Hombre]

I used to do a job at a Ford factory, I water tested rear axle housings for leaks. Rubber gaskets sealed the ends and where the third member went, 15psi of air was injected. It blew bubbles if it leaked. I marked the leaks with a crayon and sent it to the repair dept. Good ones went the other way.

You need to do something similar; find a way to cap off the oil hoses, but leave a way to inject air pressure. Fill the radiator with water, apply air and look for bubbles at the filler neck.

My experience with water leaks into a combustion chamber is the steam produced cleans the piston, head, and anything else in contact with it. It's real obvious when you pull the head and one is clean and the others are carboned up.

 

[alrman]

there is a hydraulic cooler tank in the bottom of the radiator, the issue is the pressure the hydraulics work at would blow the cap clean off, where as the radiator became milky and therefore hot but not extreme pressure? am I wrong here?

Sorry, I'm just trying to figure what you are trying to describe.

You can test the oil cooler with compressed air or vacuum.
Plug one end of the cooler (with steel hydraulic caps) & fabricate a fitting to allow regulated compressed air into the cooler - it should hold pressure.

The oil cooler in the radiator is transmission NOT hydraulic.
If your radiator was "repaired" the cooler should have been tested as part of the "repair".

 

[Juskatla]

According to the manual, the torque convertor pump puts out 275-325 psi at 600rpm and up to 550 psi at high idle of 2250 rpm. A small pinhole in the radiator oil cooler to the engine coolant would move oil from the cooler into the engine coolant. Its unlikely to pressure the engine coolant beyond the cap rating all at once. The convertor oil goes from the reservoir area, through the pump, to the control valve, to the filter, back to the control valve and on to the torque convertor. The only place they are close to engine coolant is in the radiator. Your engine liners are wet liners but as mentioned, failure in that area would put coolant into the engine oil. Since you already have the head off, check the gasket and the block between #3 & #4, as the 188s apparently crack there. I'm not a mechanic, just have a 580CK, the Repair Manual and internet....
I'm interested in your diagnosis outcome.

 

[ianoz]

Chester , The oil flow to the cooler is not at working pressure , And it is a transmission cooler , not a hydraulic system cooler , so at lower pressure anyway .
Try looping the oilcooler hoses so the oil goes back to the transmission .Run the machine up to working temp , If water drips out of thecooler fitings then that is your leak .
Or pressurize the oil cooler with air , if you get air bubbles in the radiator {Filled with water ** , That is your leak .
But i would have thought who ever repaired the radiator would have pressure tested it .

 

[Tinkerer]

Did the fan damage the oil cooler when it hit the radiator ? If it did you may be seeing remnants of oil coming out of the engine water jacket. If no oil was in the engine water jacket you need to check the oil cooler like was previously mentioned.

 

[Diggerdozer]

fan sliced above tank that houses oil cooler damaging fins , too much oil in radiator to be something minor

with Head checked and resurfaced
block not appearing to have a crack between number 3 and 4 pots and
wet sleeves discounted as there is no coolant in the oil

it would appear as though the culprit remains the radiator

as the head is off at present with new rings and a bearings planned I can't start and warm up , th eradiator will be taken out to remove it as th ereason

How visible would the crack be between the cylinders in the block ?

 

[Tinkerer]

Do as Alrman suggested, plug one of the oil cooler fittings and apply regulated air to the other fitting. Submerse the radiator in water. A cheap child's plastic swimming pool works well for this test. If the cooler is leaking the air bubbles will be readily apparent. I have used swimming pools to find unbelievably small leaks in car and truck tires when I couldn't find them with soapy water out of a spray bottle.

 

[Diggerdozer]

well I rang the guys who did the radiator repairs , it turns out they only test the coolant side of the radiator for leaks, in other words only the area they repaired

Since it may be a small hole they could pressurise the radiator and think all gd except that they may have not noticed a leak into the trans cooler in the bottom tank.

Any way I rang them and quote "we don't test the Trans cooler only the radiator we repaired

He agreed the trans cooler is probably the issue, real handy .... not !! you would have thought they would check both, So out it comes .

I cant help but think that when testing the radiator that a leak into the trans cooler would show up , unless in a hurry and didn't see anything ?????

 

[El Hombre]

If they put the radiator into the test tank with the cooler fittings facing down, a bubble would form in the cooler, and when they applied air, it would just make the air bubble bigger. So it would look OK. Fittings up, water fills the cooler and bubbles are apparent.

 

[Tinkerer]

I cant help but think that when testing the radiator that a leak into the trans cooler would show up , unless in a hurry and didn't see anything ?????

If they capped the cooler inlets to keep any oil it may have in it from it contaminating their tank, and then actually pressure tested the radiator the leaking cooler would not be revealed.
I have a similar experience with a radiator I had re-cored. I thought it was strange that the man that owns the shop told me to remove the radiator cap and take it home with me. He said he didn't want to be responsible for a lost cap. I didn't think any thing of it until the radiator top tank seam started leaking a few months later. So I take it back and tell him it is leaking. He says yeah I can fix it. A couple of days later I go and get it. It looks real nice and clean. I asked him if they pressure tested it and he says, no we never do and have never had one leak. Oh oh.
It took $185.00 to get it out of his shop. That was a little over a year ago and it is leaking again.

 

[Diggerdozer]

yes it Is looking that way now

If they put the radiator into the test tank with the cooler fittings facing down, a bubble would form in the cooler, and when they applied air, it would just make the air bubble bigger. So it would look OK. Fittings up, water fills the cooler and bubbles are apparent.