Buying/leasing Oxy/Ace/LP torch bottles and goodies.

[fastline]

As part of my other thread dealing with a stuck hydro pin, I have reached the end of my rope borrowing torch stuff. I help others but when I need a torch, I get 2 empty bottles and told "just fill them". Time to buy and it's been 20y.

So here is the thing, I don't do mobile stuff often, and obviously don't use a torch that much anyway. I'm also HVAC so I want to delete the borrowing of a small rig for that work. What I am thinking on is about a 150cf O2 tank, then a smaller O2 tank with it. Obviously as pressures drop, this is not a full fill but can kick the can down the road since 20cf fills are high.

As for Acetylene, I'm mostly in the boat to just run LP for now? I've run it, both for heating and cutting. Heat work was for either shrink fitting or heat treating. It was clean and ran perfect. Cutting was obviously slower but I don't use torches for major cutting. If I ran into that, I would get an Ace bottle.

For LP, I can fill off the big tank, and I want to charge my little 16oz bottle and I think I can easily braze AC stuff with one, and the cleaner flame I think will make it all the better.

thoughts so far? I've found TSC does a new/exchange deal but new tanks are STUPID high! Used, the welding supplies local bend you right over. I don't know where else to go for O2, but because of this, seems like LP makes even more sense. Locals want a 'maint fee' plus the fill.

Onto outfits. because I rarely use, I am leaning towards some knockoff gear. People want stupid price for Victor gear. I don't even know which I would use most, but I do know I need LP setup, rosebud, braze tip, and would be nice to get some knockoff gear that adapts to standard Victor or other thread? I recall these guys play games with this so things are never compatible?

Some stuff at Harbor Freight has come a LONG ways. Like wrenches that out perform SnapOn. But playing with flame gas, I don't know other than if it sucks that bad, lawsuits would surely be in order so I would think it has to meet some regs? Or other kits, I don't know, but I need something yesterday!

 

[Mr. Wrench]

Torch setups can be expensive, especially if you don't use them often. My best advise is to get what a good welding supply store in your area has. It may be expensive but you want them to still be there in 10 years. The brand of my outfit is SMITH. I think they are the best but there are other good ones out there. I would steer clear of a HF one. I have used one before.

 

[djhutt]

Keep an eye on marketplace, I have seen some good setups come along with bottles cheep. I bought 2 setups just for the bottles and sold the rest making the bottles that much cheeper. Check the neck rings blank are good local supplier not so good, could be leased bottles.

 

[Mr. Wrench]

One thing to think about buying used tanks, is make sure that you can get them filled or exchanged at your local supplier. I worked for a man that was going to be smart and get them cheaper. He bought a bunch of tanks some where but the local welding supply wouldn't exchange them because they were not theirs. He finally found a place about 40 miles away one way that would fill them. I didn't think it turned out that good of a deal. Just be sure you will be able to get them filled where you were hoping to. A lot of times the lease can be transferred from one owner to the next.

 

[DDoug]

I standardized on Airco/Concoa for my cutting torches.
tips all interchange, have a good amount of different sizes built
up over the years.

 

[Tinkerer]

You don't need to spend a fortune for a small acy/oxy set.
Here is an example of a small one and larger ones are available to.
They are quite handy because they can be carried wit one hand by an average person.
I watched steel a suplly outfit use one to trim new I-beams in a new basement and it was fast because he didn't need to use long hoses like I have in my shop.

 

[Welder Dave]

A welding supply should have a Victor knock off of decent quality. A good quality torch set will last for decades. Always back off the adjusting screws on the regulators before opening and open cylinders slowly. Victor are the most common and you can buy tips and accessories everywhere. You could try other torches to see what's the most comfortable to you. I much preferred Purox torches but Esab in their stupidity discontinued them. They also bastardized some of the the Victor torches that were very popular. Almost like somebody at Esab just had to put their spin on the torch to make it different than original Victor. I think you're right to get bigger cylinders. The tiny tanks are much more per cubic ft. and don't last long. They are good in tight spaces or if you have to haul a torch up stairs or something. Some sets can be hooked up to larger cylinders. You don't want to try filling from a larger cylinder. It could end up bad! To use propane you just have to change tips or buy a propane kit. You can braze with propane but can't weld with propane. Propane has specific rosebud heating tips too.

You have to be careful buying used cylinders. Some are actually stolen lease tanks that can't be refilled and the welding supply will confiscate them. I have seen some good deals on legit customer owned cylinders. Some welding supplies sell cylinders and some only lease them. You'd have to compare the costs. If you buy you may have to pay a hydrotest test fee every 5 years or 10 years depending on how often the specific cylinder requires testing. I think most nowadays are 10 years but have seen a lot with 5 year test dates. The advantage of buying, if you can get them easily filled locally is you don't keep paying a lease year after year that keeps going up in price. Always use at least a shade 3 lens when cutting if you value your eyes. I know some that don't and I cringe. I can't see my soapstone lines without goggles.

 

[cuttin edge]

You don't need to spend a fortune for a small acy/oxy set.
Here is an example of a small one and larger ones are available to.
They are quite handy because they can be carried wit one hand by an average person.
I watched steel a suplly outfit use one to trim new I-beams in a new basement and it was fast because he didn't need to use long hoses like I have in my shop.
View attachment 363593

Those would be perfect. I don't cut much, but sometimes I'd love to be able to heat something

 

[Tinkerer]

The local welding supply store where I get my big tanks exchanged sells the small kits like the one in the image, and will exchange the tanks when they are empty.
If you buy them on ebay or used somewhere you may have a problem getting them refilled/exchanged.
I tried using propane many years ago and was disappointed in it compared to acetylene. Especially when using a rosebud torch to heat anything big.

 

[Welder Dave]

You need big cylinders for a rosebud. Propane doesn't have a withdrawal rate that you need to be concerned with like you do with acetylene so you can use larger rosebuds. Propane has more BTU's than acetylene and propane needs more oxygen than acetylene. Acetylene has a higher temperature in the inner flames and the heat is more concentrated. Propane has a higher temperature in the outer flame so is better for heating a larger area. Because you can use a much larger heating tip with propane it is better for heating big or thick sections. Was hard to find brochures on the huge oxy/propane heating tips but finally found a good comparison sheet for Smith/Miller heating tips. Compare the BTU's of the largest oxy/acetylene tip and the largest oxy/propane tip, almost triple the BTU's and then there's propylene (in-between acetylene and propane) tips up to 830,000 BTU's. There are other oxy/propane/propylene heating tips that are even bigger. They are a modular design so you can pick the heating head and the length of the tube. They can be 4' or longer with the heating tip almost 3" in diameter. Be aware you need large cylinders and lots and lots of oxygen for the huge heating tips.

https://contenthub.itwwelding.com/api/public/content/miller-electric-mfg-llc/spec-sheet/PIM/d330d4-ge28-0.pdf

 

[Welder Dave]

Those would be perfect. I don't cut much, but sometimes I'd love to be able to heat something

Those tiny cylinders wouldn't last more than a couple minutes for heating and you couldn't really use a heating tip because you'd withdrawal the acetylene too fast which would draw the acetone out of the cylinder. Acetone is what keeps acetylene in a safe stable state. If it's gone you have a really good chance of creating a bomb!

 

[fastline]

Those tiny cylinders wouldn't last more than a couple minutes for heating and you couldn't really use a heating tip because you'd withdrawal the acetylene too fast which would draw the acetone out of the cylinder. Acetone is what keeps acetylene in a safe stable state. If it's gone you have a really good chance of creating a bomb!

Something I need to dig into. Are you saying there is a safe withdrawal rate for a given cylinder volume? I would likely never need to get to extremes of anything with a torch, at least in the short term.

here is something I found from a shade tree dude on "the internet", is acetylene is far superior for things I might need the torch for which is unsticking bolts, or IE unfuking situations similar. Basically spot heating like I'm about to do to try to unstick and stuck pin. Honestly, I can see the acetylene temp being helpful, but we are pumping the BTUs to glow an area of about 1x3". I've used LP for heat treating and it was nice and controlled.

For this, I was just going to use a cutting tip. A rose is prob more cost than it's worth in such a small area, and I may well move right to cutting.

the cowboy doing the vid was all about that acetylene, even running the cost matrix, but I think it's smart to have gear to run either! Sometimes you are in a pinch and everyone one has a 20# LP around. I want to use it to exploit the cleaner and cooler flame for HVAC! I want to do a little horsing to see if oxidation is better or worse inside the weld without purge gas.

 

[cfherrman]

Can't help you on bottles except using propane over acetylene, which I probably wouldn't do.

I picked up a torch set at harbor freight and couldn't be happier with it, used it a ton of times and it's perfect every time. I even bought the bigger torch and 50' horses but still use the smaller torch that comes with the set and the short hose as I typically do small jobs and just load up the tanks and drop them right on top of the job.

Monday I'll be doing quite if bit of work so I'll be busting out the 50' hose but I prefer the smaller torch still.

 

[JLarson]

I don't know about welding supply houses everywhere else but here several rebuild torches and regulators, I would imagine most do, so if you by something used that may be an option.

 

[Welder Dave]

Something I need to dig into. Are you saying there is a safe withdrawal rate for a given cylinder volume? I would likely never need to get to extremes of anything with a torch, at least in the short term.

here is something I found from a shade tree dude on "the internet", is acetylene is far superior for things I might need the torch for which is unsticking bolts, or IE unfuking situations similar. Basically spot heating like I'm about to do to try to unstick and stuck pin. Honestly, I can see the acetylene temp being helpful, but we are pumping the BTUs to glow an area of about 1x3". I've used LP for heat treating and it was nice and controlled.

For this, I was just going to use a cutting tip. A rose is prob more cost than it's worth in such a small area, and I may well move right to cutting.

the cowboy doing the vid was all about that acetylene, even running the cost matrix, but I think it's smart to have gear to run either! Sometimes you are in a pinch and everyone one has a 20# LP around. I want to use it to exploit the cleaner and cooler flame for HVAC! I want to do a little

The link below explains it pretty good. To use a large acetylene rosebud it's recommended to manifold 2 large cylinders together but a lot of users don't. When I worked in technical support for welding sales for a large industrial supply one of the branch managers got really mad at me and even called my boss to complain. I refused to give him a part number for a high flow acetylene regulator his customer wanted. Apparently the regulator his customer was using was plugging up. He wouldn't tell me what rosebud his customer was using or the size of cylinder. I couldn't in good conscience tell him how to potentially blow himself up! My boss was a little upset until I showed him an article I had found that explained it. The article even mentioned an inexperienced sales person selling a rosebud for too small of cylinder and not knowing the danger. The plugged regulator quite possibly saved his life. What was plugging the regulator was the sticky liquid acetone being drawn out of the cylinder. You have to be drawing a lot of acetylene or using way too small of cylinder to draw that much acetone. A large cylinder that is near empty could also cause it. If the acetone is drawn out of the cylinder the remaining unstable acetylene is essentially an unpredictable bomb! Many welding welding supplies sell acetylene by the actual volume in the cylinder rather than a set price. A set price can rip some customers off. The amount of acetylene is based on how much acetone is in the cylinder. Cylinders are weighed to measure how much acetone is remaining. If it gets too low they either scrap the cylinder or add some more acetone. The cylinders are heavy because they are also filled with a porous material that absorbs the acetone. It keeps the acetylene stable. Acetylene cylinders have to be used in an upright position so acetone can't run out or flow toward the valve. If the cylinders are laid on their side, they should be stood up for 4 hours or so (depending on size) to let the acetone flow back down.

https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Resources/Knowledge-Center/Tech-Tips/Tech-Tips-OLD/What-is-the-1-7-acetylene-rule

 

[Mr. Wrench]

Welder Dave, I appreciated reading your last couple post. I never heard all that explained that well before.

 

[Welder Dave]

Thanks. There's a lot of mis-information and a lot of people just aren't aware. Acetylene is safe when used properly but is dangerous if used the wrong way.

I also took a course on propane so I could fill cylinders. I am shocked that anybody can buy a propane tank and get it filled without even having to read the safety precautions. Propane is basically a boiling liquid inside the tank at that's what gives it pressure. If it leaks liquid can cause severe burns because it boils at a low temperature. There were pics. of exploded tanks in the course I took and they mentioned someone had burns over 80% of their body from an exploded tank. It's very important not to fill the tanks over 80% full to allow for expansion.