ASV HD4520 a Good Starter Machine?

[Courage]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum, so hopefully I'm posting this in the correct place. Sorry if I'm not!

I have a small landscape maintenance company, that pays the bills, but I'm looking to transition into something more technical/ more specialized equipment, for more earning potential. I really enjoy equipment, and from talking to some local contractor friends (dirt work, gravel pit, and equipment operator) they think there'd be a market for a guy with a large frame CTL, and eventually a dump trailer and mini ex once the budget allowed. Because I have my landscaping business to support me, I wouldn't need it to take off fast, and in fact wouldn't have the time to dedicate to it immediately, as I still have 3+ days of landscaping work each week.

After doing a little more market research, I'm kinda leaning towards trying to make my main gig be forestry mulching. Living in a heavily forested area, where the local rental shop charges $1,800 for a day of renting their forestry mulching machine, I'm thinking there might just be a marker for an operator + machine for smaller prodjects especially. I don't know for sure though that there would be a market for it, so I don't want to invest a ton in my starter/try-it-out set-up.

I found a 1999 ASV HD4520 (3,500 hours) with a disk style mulch head on it for $25k obo. I can't find out much info about the CTL, and I can't find ANY info on the much head. The guys says it runs and works well, and the he's open to offers.
I've heard that ASV's have a very costly undercarriage. How much more so than a Bobcat or John Deere? For a starter machine, would you reccomend it? I've also heard that the 4520 has a drive line that is extremely time consuming to change when it fails. Any info on this?
Because the 4520 is a pretty good size machine, I would think it would be pretty versatile for general dirt work, as well. Would I be correct on this?
It seems to me that I could start out with the head that's on it to get a feel for it, and then upgrade heads once I learned if there was a good market for it or not.

Any thoughts? Good idea, bad idea? Good starter setup, or run from it? How much would you offer the guy?
Thanks in advance!
Courage

 

[CM1995]

Welcome to the Forums! Glad to have you.

Headed out of town so I don’t have the time for a proper response other than do not buy that machine or any ASV for that matter.

Other members are more knowledgable on the cutting heads and mulching in general.

You do not want the headaches of an ASV style UC will give you.

 

[TXRweather]

I would hire a heavy equipment mechanic to go and look at it with you. The two or three hundred dollars you pay him up front could very easily save you tens of thousands of dollars on the backend on parts, labor and down time. Remember, ASV has been bought and sold several times since that machine was made. Parts availability maybe scarce. I would check with Yanmar to see if they are carrying many common parts for that machine or if they are going to carry parts for that old of a machine.

But, you need to do your marketing research first. How saturated is your area in companies doing what you want to do, already? How steady is the work in your area for forestry mulching? Is there enough available work to spread around between companies or is the competition stiff? Does your business insurance company cover forestry mulching? What is the cost of the insurance rider to be fully covered with at least a $1,000,000 policy. Most places won't even let you haul your equipment on their site without that amount of coverage. How much are companies charging per job to do a few acres? How many mulching companies have come and gone within the last 5 years in your area?
Do you have a truck and trailer that can move that large of a piece of equipment legally? How much does that mulcher head weigh in comparison to the machines capability to lift on a steep incline?

 

[BC Placer gold]

We purchased this small (50hp) ASV 50 this winter. Really nice to operate (pilot joysticks), great snow/mud flotation/traction….BUT I don’t really feel confident that the undercarriage would stand up to hard use day after day. We have a lot of sharp/angular bedrock here and I definitely wouldn’t want to be doing much turning/rotation on those slopes…our tracks are showing some chunking/fibers. Also noticeable
tread wear directly beneath where the rollers contact rubber tracks….

For us it is primarily an acreage machine with minor support roles at our mining sites (reclamation/spread topsoil etc…). And for this purpose it is quite effective. I am the only operator so very fussy with turning/undercarriage cleaning….

Good luck!

 

[MG84]

Forestry mulching is a hard way to make a living IMO. There are some big guys out there with specialized equipment that do R.O.W. clearing etc that make good money at it, lots of the guys doing it with a CTL or mini ex not so much (if they are honest with themselves and their book keeping/depreciation, etc.) Very hard on equipment and everyone and their brother is doing it around here, seems like a race to the bottom to me. I've seen guys buy a new 100hp CTL and mulcher for $125-150K and in a couple years it's reduced to junk. On top of that, they are looking for work and doing a lot of jobs that could have been done cheaper/better with a farm tractor and a bush hog or conventional clearing.

 

[HarleyHappy]

It’s unfortunate that the ASV is an ASV.
If that were any other make, I would say it’s worth 20k but even that head is a cheaply. It would be an okay starter set up, to get into it and see if you like doing clearing jobs. I have rented a disk mulcher like that a couple of times and was thinking about buying one, till I rented it.
Makes for a very long day and something that I certainly wouldn’t want to do more than a day a month.
If there is anything more than a 4 to 1 slope, that unit is going to suck.
Never mind their undercarriage problems.
I told myself, I would never do it, without an auxiliary cooler as there isn’t enough AC on a stock system, on a cool day, never mind a 100 degree day.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

That is a first-generation ASV, which at this point I would consider obselete. Not only from a parts availability standpoint (though you may still be able to get them) but for the fact that it's the first generation of ASV's undercarriage and they spent the 10-20 years after that machine was made working out bugs and making improvements. Later versions are more durable and easier to service.

Initially, ASV didn't set out to make what we currently know as a CTL or an MTL. The market was very different back then. They wanted to make a do everything machine for farmers, landscapers, ect which could be operated in both directions (by reversing the seat) and had optional three points hitch and backhoe attachments. Those features didn't prove to be exceptionally popular, and subsequent models were geared more toward a "traditional" CTL/MTL.

For reference, I bought a 2006 ASV SR80 (probably ten years newer) with 1300 hours for $24k. Didn't include a mulcher, but the one in your photo looks like a Chinese unit, so I wouldn't attach a whole lot of value to it.

My take on mulching is that a regular diet of it usually will significantly shorten the life of just about any MTL or CTL. That's why companies like Rayco, Supertrak, ect exist. I wouldn't go into it with the 30-year-old machine and cheapo mulcher shown above and expect to make a whole lot of money.

 

[Courage]

Hey guys, I just jumped on here for other reasons, and realized that I never replied, and thanked you for sharing you wealth of knowledge. I greatly appreciate it, and am sorry for not thanking everyone who shared sooner! I passed on the machine at y'all's recommendation.

I still am interested in getting a piece of equipment, and adding services to my existing landscaping company/maybe eventually transitioning my business to be more equipment focused, instead of so dependent on manual labor...

I hear a lot of your concerns about the market for forestry mulching being an overcrowded race to the bottom. Do you guys think I'd be better off focusing more on driveways and general small dirt work projects?

I've been super busy with landscaping, so I was thinking I'd put this decision off until next year, but I could use a right off before the new year for tax purposes, and I'm thinking of bumping this decision up closer.
As far as trucks and trailers go, I have 3 different ¾ tons, and know I'll be picking up a trailer to haul whatever I end up getting.

I look forward to everyone's feedback.

Thanks in advance!

Courage

 

[MG84]

Instead of trying to branch off, I'd just expand the services of your current landscape maintenance business. You've already got a customer base to work with and if they like your work they'd probably be more than willing to hire you for other things. Retaining walls, patios, hardscaping and new lawn installs all fit nicely with a what you already do. From there you could also offer drainage solutions (downspout drains, channel drains, foundation drainage repair, etc). To go a step further would be getting in to some masonry and concrete flat work.

All of those things are still going to require hand labor/skilled labor, but you'll make a lot more in the long run than just offering hourly equipment work. Always sell the job/end product, not the equipment work, and I personally never do any hourly work, everything is a turn key price.

You're ideally going to need a CTL and mini ex, buy one and rent the other for the time being. 75hp CTL should be plenty, 3.5-5ton mini ex, depending on what you can safely tow.

 

[Courage]

Instead of trying to branch off, I'd just expand the services of your current landscape maintenance business. You've already got a customer base to work with and if they like your work they'd probably be more than willing to hire you for other things. Retaining walls, patios, hardscaping and new lawn installs all fit nicely with a what you already do. From there you could also offer drainage solutions (downspout drains, channel drains, foundation drainage repair, etc). To go a step further would be getting in to some masonry and concrete flat work.

All of those things are still going to require hand labor/skilled labor, but you'll make a lot more in the long run than just offering hourly equipment work. Always sell the job/end product, not the equipment work, and I personally never do any hourly work, everything is a turn key price.

You're ideally going to need a CTL and mini ex, buy one and rent the other for the time being. 75hp CTL should be plenty, 3.5-5ton mini ex, depending on what you can safely tow.

Thanks a bunch for your detailed response! I really appreciate it. Whatever I do end up doing, I'd like to be able to continue avoiding the headaches that come with employees.

I do totally hear what you're saying though, about utilizing my current customer base. Also, I don't work by the hour with my current work, so I'm used to working by bid. If you dont mind my asking, about how much do you figure a person would be able to net an hour doing the type of work you suggested?

Any suggestions on which piece would be better to buy vs rent for starters?

I'm looking to upgrade my tow rig, so I just need to stay under a ~12k lb machine to avoid needing a CDL...

 

[Tones]

When those machines come out originally for this and the RC series the track gear was proprietary to ASV therefore expensive. Patients have lappest so plenty of aftermarket stuff around with quality from good to crap. Just new tracks for my RC100 was dearer than a total refit on a D6 using Cat parts.
Track drive motors on this model were terrible.

 

[CM1995]

Welcome to the Forums Courage! Glad to have you.

MG said pretty much what I was going to type. Solid advice.

Instead of trying to branch off, I'd just expand the services of your current landscape maintenance business. You've already got a customer base to work with and if they like your work they'd probably be more than willing to hire you for other things. Retaining walls, patios, hardscaping and new lawn installs all fit nicely with a what you already do. From there you could also offer drainage solutions (downspout drains, channel drains, foundation drainage repair, etc). To go a step further would be getting in to some masonry and concrete flat work.

All of those things are still going to require hand labor/skilled labor, but you'll make a lot more in the long run than just offering hourly equipment work. Always sell the job/end product, not the equipment work, and I personally never do any hourly work, everything is a turn key price.

You're ideally going to need a CTL and mini ex, buy one and rent the other for the time being. 75hp CTL should be plenty, 3.5-5ton mini ex, depending on what you can safely tow.

 

[MG84]

I do all of the above type of work I mentioned, excavating, concrete, masonry, fencing, and general construction as well as some landscaping and hardscaping (mainly retaining walls, new lawn installs, and drainage work). I don't have any employees, but I do have a group of good sub contractors and a couple guys that do whatever work I need and I pay them via 1099 through their own businesses. I've made it a point to keep my business very simple and streamlined. Sole proprietorship, no employees, all my big trucks are under 54K gross, no USDOT number because I stay in state, etc, etc. I hate paperwork and bureaucratic BS so I avoid it if possible. I do have a CDL with med card, so that has to be kept up, but that I consider worth it. If you want to be competitive in anything excavating/heavy equipment related you need to get a CDL. The bigger trucks are safer, cheaper to operate, more efficient and a big labor saver vs than anything you can do with a pickup. If small residential type work is all you plan to do you can probably get by with a pickup + 15K trailer, and maybe a class 6 under 26k dump truck.

If I had to pair my equipment down to the three most used pieces it would be the Kubota SVL65-2 CTL, U48-5 mini excavator and my tandem dump truck. I 'could' run the business with just those if I didn't take on some of the larger excavating jobs. Next most used is my Case 450C LGP dozer, small Kubota tractor (with harley rake, Brillion seeder, bush hog, etc) and my flatbed medium duty truck.

The mini excavator weighs right at 11,500lbs, so it's basically maxed out for my 15K trailer and '19 F250, but on occasion I do tow it with that and that combo is completely legal and under CDL. To me it doesn't feel very safe though and isn't doing the pickup any favors so I generally haul it with one of the big trucks on the pintle trailer. CTL weighs just over 8000lbs so it's a comfortable load behind a 3/4T truck. I used to have a U35-4 mini ex, at 8200lbs it towed nicely behind the pickup. Also used to run KX040's, around 9000-9500lbs, which is about the max I'd consider towing with a pickup on a regular basis.

Which to buy first? IDK, either has it's pros and cons. The mini ex is probably more versatile than the CTL, it can do most of the things the CTL can (short of fork work,) but its very inefficient when you need to move materials across a jobsite, spread large quantities of stone or dirt, or finish grade large areas. If you have a small dump truck to be used as a site truck to accompany the mini ex it mitigates some of those problems, although loading a truck with a 3.5t mini isn't very fast. CTL is great for everything until it comes to trenching, digging footers, stump/tree removal, etc. If you are mostly doing flat work, lawn installs, and light grading the CTL might be a better first choice.

Either way you'll find you need both a hoe and a loader on most jobs, so you'll be renting one regardless. Third option (although not very popular these days) is a small backhoe. Kubota makes some pretty nice small backhoes that are under CDL weight and still have good digging and loader capabilities. Bonus is you also get a tractor with a 3pt hitch/pto. I used to run those a lot back in the day, they are good units for what they are. They will not have the speed or power of a mini ex/ctl, but for versatility can't be beat.

 

[Courage]

Ok, hmmm. I kinda think I'm leaning more towards a mini ex first. Based upon what your saying, it seems more versatile. It also seems (please correct me if I'm wrong on this) that the skid steer would be more user friendly to rent one and pick up the controlls faster than a mini ex. This makes me think that owning the mini ex to i can practice with it at home for just the cast of diesel would make more sense. I do think I'll get my cdl either this winter or next.