Another wench question

[Nitelite]

Question for D6 Merv or anyone else.

My Cat D4E dozer has a D4E Heister winch on the back. It was mounted on the machine when I bought it. The winch seems not to be connected to the PTO shaft. With the access plate on the side of the wench removed there is no rotation of the input shaft.

Is there a way to look at the PTO coupler without removing the wench?

When the winch was installed was the shafts lined up and the coupling made as the wench was installed sort of like lining up the shaft of a standard truck transmission or was the wench installed and later the coupling put into place connecting the PTO to the winch via an access plate?

Could it be that the last person to work on the dozer just did not couple the shafts?

In other words do I need to remove the wench to troubleshoot the problem and see if the coupler is indeed installed correctly and / or why the input shaft is not rotating with the PTO?

I have been putting off repairing the winch long enough. It would be a shame to need the winch to pull the stuck dozer out with a non working winch.

This is a 27x direct drive machine

Thanks

 

[D6 Merv]

Did you pull the cover off the top of the winch ?? Where you look into the pinion and double bevel gears. If these don,t turn when the clutch is engaged then the coupler is missing or something is broken.
Also the outside lever works the freespool dog clutch. If its in drum disconnect [freespool] then the winch drum won,t rotate under power. It needs to be engaged, and the inside lever fwd/rev in gear and flywheel clutch engaged for drum to turn.
If your certain the pto shaft isn,t turning; only way to find out why is to remove the winch. But drain the trans oil first !! Will save you cleaning up a big mess.

 

[SterlingR]

Maybe a blown hose under the cover?

 

[Buckethead]

Is there a way to look at the PTO coupler without removing the wench?

When the winch was installed was the shafts lined up and the coupling made as the wench was installed sort of like lining up the shaft of a standard truck transmission or was the wench installed and later the coupling put into place connecting the PTO to the winch via an access plate?

Wenching is one of my favorite operations!

 

[Nitelite]

The pto is not turnning

I pulled the top winch access cover and started the engine. I engaged the main clutch on the direct drive tractor by pulling the clutch lever all the way towards the operator seat while the transmission shifter was in neutral. The pinion gear and side gears shown in the picture did not start not turning. Nothing that I do with any lever selection will make the pto shaft turn.

Merv, am I understanding you right, that by design, the winch pinion gear and side gears are always turning if the tractor clutch is engaged and there is no provision to disengage the winch, whether it is in use or not, while the tractor working?

I pried on the pinion and side gears to check for play in the bearings. There is a lot of side play and end play. Could be that if there was a bearing noise in the winch that the previous owner disconnected the pto at the coupler.

 

[Nitelite]

There is always a complication!

The two top bolts that hold the winch on to the back of the dozer look to be a bugger to get to because they are hidden behind the short fenders. Looks like a choice of removing the fuel tank, rops and fenders or torching the heads off of the top bolts. New bolts or studs and nuts should not be hard to find for replacement.

In the pictures, if you look real good at the partially hidden bolts below the fuel tank and just behind the winch you can see marks where the winch has moved up and down at the slotted holes indicating that they are not all that tight. I will try turning them with a hammer and chisel first. Maybe could get it with a 1 5/16" crow foot or might even be able to make a wrench of some sort.

The fender at the rear of the machine.
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[D6 Merv]

that's no good nitelite. Yes bevel gears should turn with master clutch engaged.
possibly what is going on; is because the winch sits further out on a D4E with those ROPS mounts. On a D4D, which the winch was designed for, didn't have these rops mounts. Therefore winch is sitting further back and the splines on the coupling have either not engaged at all. Or have possibly stripped because they only engaged by about a inch or most likely less. I do know the later D4F winch came out with 2 different length pto shafts, possibly because of this.
only way to find out is to remove and carefully measure. You may well have to remove the fuel tank to get at those 2 top studs.
There is 2 different stud patterns on the case of D4E winchs. 3/4 to suit the 7u series machines and 7/8 to suit later tractors.
I have a D4E winch on my D4 7U series. Good luck with it, they are certainly a handy thing to have on a dozer

 

[crookedwrench]

Nitelite
I recently mounted a Hyster D4F on my D4D. I did not measure the PTO shaft and assumed it would fit. I had the pleasure of removing the winch and having the PTO shaft lengthened by a machinist. That unit weighs 1600lbs Be careful!

 

[D6 Merv]

what did he do to lengthen it crooked wrench ?? make a longer coupling ?? Did your D4D have ROPS mounts on it ??

 

[crookedwrench]

D6 Merv
I do have a cab on my tractor ,but not an official ROPS. I was able to unbolt it and jack it and the fuel tank up 2-3 inches to give me space to work. The coupler was standard. Machinist spliced and lengthened the shaft. My other issue was when I removed the plate on the back to get access to the PTO, someone had used a cutting torch and cut a hole almost the size of a football in the plate steel. My guess that it was easy access to ring gear? The was about 200 degrees of the original hole left so machinist could fab up a new ring and repair the hole. I let my machinist make all the measurements and it works fine.

 

[lantraxco]

That's insane! Torching a hole in that rear plate is a hanging offense in my book

 

[Nitelite]

D6 Merv
I was able to unbolt it and jack it and the fuel tank up 2-3 inches to give me space to work.

Thanks for the tip about jacking up the fuel tank to access the bolts. Sounds like its a lot easier than removing the tank. Why didn't I think of that?

Nice looking machine crookedwrench. When you reinstalled the winch did you just align the splined pto shaft with the coupler and shove the winch home, sort of like installing a straight shift transmission?

D6 Merv, I understand what you are saying. It seems to me that it would have been better if Cat would have provided a way to disengage the pto shaft when it is not in use, sort of like my ag tractor, thus preventing a lot of wear on the winch gearing. But, it is what it is. Thanks for the post!

 

[crookedwrench]

With the correct alignment and shaft length---Yes, I just shoved it on and bolted the unit up to the tractor. Getting the control cables working correctly was a pain. I had to replace only one of them. You need to see them working BEFORE you mount the unit!
Obviously, I did not follow my own advice.

 

[Nitelite]

I looked at the dozer to day, and as you can see in the first picture my D4E tank sets farther to the rear than crookedwrench's D4D, I can't jack up the tank. The rear screen is bolted at the bottom to the two heavy brackets that are welded to the rops. After removal of the screen the tank would need to be pushed forward before it could be jacked up because those brackets sit almost on top of the tank. It looks like that would require seat removal at the least. No short cut there. Looking now like the best option is going to drain a full tank and then remove the tank, but only after I try making a crow foot or some other fab tool to get at those two bolts.

I have cleaned the winch control cables and was able to get oil between the inner and outer cables. They work freely. I will also need to check the adjustment on the cables. I have the specifications.