Ancient type dutch front PTO

[towbar]

I don't think I have ever posted about this beast here, it's from my 1991 Deutz-Fahr Dx-6.05 in a time when front PTO's were just begining to make the scene (as far as I know). Does anyone remember these drum typesz and could still coach me about them? The pads seem to be worn to limits (glazing) and I desperately need new ones but can't find any! Having custom made ones probably costs a fortune, adding a 1/4 inch or so to them might be one option.


The outfit that made them no longer does, won't say boo, guess they're ashamed of the engineering.


The pads have no metal backing to rivet to, I guess they must be machined from good thick 3d stock. The laminated hidden levers squeeze the V-shape rings together thus forcing the pads out toward the drum. I have many other pictures if anyone is interested in figuring this PTO out.

Me and my Phd'd blacksmith stripped it, I took pictures then too, next I took the pieces home and cleaned and primed them, then we got some bearings installed and he reassembled. We thought the shoes were not that worn (absolutely no documentation) but missed the fact that they are a bit glazed, not really providing friction. The short of the long is that after reinstallation the output shaft won't turn, the pads are not doing their thing. There's a bit of additional preload available via a large ring-nut but even if I close up the remaing play it won't be enough.

What to do?

 

[skyking1]

remove the glazing if possible. Rough them up and re-assemble.

 

[Tones]

I owned a 89 Versatile 276 bidirectional tractor and front 3point and PTO were an option then. Guess Nth America wasn't up to speed with this ability then.

 

[towbar]

I owned a 89 Versatile 276 bidirectional tractor and front 3point and PTO were an option then. Guess Nth America wasn't up to speed with this ability then.

Did yours have the front pto, was it drum type? I'm looking for traceable facsimilies for scrounging pads or complete used units.

They had been using this type initially, I don't know when they started changing over but they next went to disks because the dry drum layout requiring large diameters provides too little torque near the small front pulley. Some use no clutch at all relying on safety slip-clutches on the implements if that suits the use made of them. For my money the ideal is a two-speed front driveshaft from the tranny with an independant clutch just between the engine and the fwd driveshaft but we have to live with what we have. My tractor makes only one upgrade workable (outside of hydraulic solutions) and it's a Sauter unit but my cost here would be $8000 plus engineering and installation probably doubling that amount. At those levels I can spoil myself with the best in hydraulics (although with oil you need to double the theoretical numbers)!

 

[towbar]

remove the glazing if possible. Rough them up and re-assemble.

Once I open it I'll take a look at how much take-up remains, the V-groove rings are about 45 degrees so 2-3 threads would mean just a few milimeters which would work but would leave no 'use' margin over time. Another brainfart I had after posting was maybe adding to the pads UNDERNEATH them in the V-groove, probably an easier avenue and it could even be a steel spacer ring welded to the split groove rings.

 

[56wrench]

I looked online and found the complete manual and service instructions for that clutch. Its pretty simple

 

[towbar]

I looked online and found the complete manual and service instructions for that clutch. Its pretty simple

Outta sight man, what searchwords did it because I've tried and got nothing at all. This time I entered 'gv clutches' and bingo. Didn't know that GV was their 'name' :-(

THANKS

 

[Tones]

Towbar, mine was never set up for front use. I didn't know that it was capable of it until I read the manuals then started looking and all the bolt holes were there. IIRC one clutch operated both PTOs which was a Twin Disc. Kinda blew me away that it was so advanced for its time.

 

[towbar]

Towbar, mine was never set up for front use. I didn't know that it was capable of it until I read the manuals then started looking and all the bolt holes were there. IIRC one clutch operated both PTOs which was a Twin Disc. Kinda blew me away that it was so advanced for its time.

Yeh, that WAS ahead of its time alright.

Now that thanks to 56wrench I have some documentation I'm going to make a strip/assemble manual for future victims of this PTO, rare as they may be. I could just try to squeeze up the adjusting nut but it might not even make any difference, plus I saw some parts in that diagram that I don't remember from the stripping episode at all (!!!) so I don't really have any other option but to redo the whole ritual all over again (without the bearings and seals purchases).

I had also discussed it in deutzforum.de* (one of my bad habits to dual post, rarely even on forum.deutz-passion.fr) but since it is here that I got lucky I'll complete the thread here. When my blacksmith mentor stripped it I was taking pictures and not really paying attention to the SEQUENCE so I'll have to pick his brains and might even try to do it with him again. I've never done it this way before but I want to make sure at every step that the reverse assembly sequence will be garanteed to work.

* they have a very liberal image upload policy

 

[towbar]

After having had my blacksmith change and seat all bearings etc. I could not get the bitch to engage. Finally I stumbled upon one old-timer and asked him how much force can I give the adjustment nut, seeing that I was scared of breaking it. He said "NO PROBLEM, hit it with the biggest sledgehammer as hard as you can", which I did and it worked. So the PTO is functional.

Ran into a bit of a problem finding cylinders for the front lift though.



There's a similar one for $150cad here

@princessauto

but nowhere anything like mine at at a reasonable (similar) price with swivel eyeball ends in the otherwise similar 'regime':

I got 60 emails in response to one click @ indiamart.com but not a single second response after sending them the above specs image :-(

 

[terex herder]

I don't know when front PTO became a thing in the USA, but the Deere 3020 Dad bought new in 1964 has front PTO.

 

[towbar]

Some makers provide a shaft out of the gearbox, I think JD might be one such. Mine is connected directly to the engine front pulley but these inital attempts with a drum were underperforming and as a result this one is (depending on who you talk to) rated to only 70hp. Sauter (Germany) make one with disc clutches instead and it is supposedly good for 170hp ....but it's 'pricey'!

 

[towbar]

Engines data:
F4L912 4-holer machinery edition
2100rpm PTO tickmark 50kw (67hp) 230nm (170ft-lbs) 2300rpm rated (70hp)

F6L912 6-holer machinery edition
2100rpm PTO tickmark 72kw (97hp) 330nm (245ft-lbs) 2300rpm rated (107hp)

The max. T2 with a ratio of 2.1:1 is translates to about 600nm (440 ft-lbs) which is double what the F6L can put out at crank pulley/flywheel. So the question really is: IS THE PTO CLUTCH just as good?

It's a complex issue never knowing what spec and history applies to the 4-cyl dx-4.70 and to the 6-cyl dx-6.05 and any one of what seems like 4 different front PTO's tried. On paper this one looks OK but then why did Deutz go for a much better clutched Sauter?

 

[Tones]

I missed you earlier post about the Versatile tractor I owned. The front PTO wasn't fitted and found out about it when reading the manuals. IIRC it operated off the same Twin Disc clutch as the rear PTO.

 

[Tyler d4c]

I don't know when front PTO became a thing in the USA, but the Deere 3020 Dad bought new in 1964 has front PTO.

Hes talking front pto on the very front of the tractor the front pto on the 10 and 20 series deeres was there to run a mid mount sickle bar mower. Atleast thats the only thing i ever heard they where used for