Advice on equipment needed

[Turbo_Drive]

Well it's caught up to me, I miss working in the woods and I'm wanting to get back out there, but this time as an owner. I grew up in the woods working on logging and dozer crews but after college I took a job that has nothing to to do with what I really love doing. I'm now in my mid 20's and looking at starting a crew. I want to start out with used equipment, buy a decent size loader, skidder, and cutter and go from there. I'm looking at possibly all tigercat equipment or maybe a cat skidder with a tigercat loader and cutter. What would y'all consider better year models to look for, did certain years seem to have more problems than others, did some models have more problems than others, and what hours would y'all consider looking at? I'm just trying to get an idea, I've got a few older guys that have been in it for years that will go with me when I get ready to look at equipment but ill take all the advice I can get, thanks guys

 

[boardbysled]

I think your looking at this a bit backwards. I would start with how much can you afford and then decide your equipment from there.

 

[Turbo_Drive]

Your absolutely right about that and I do have an idea of what I can afford. I was just curious and figured I'd post on here and see what kinda input I got, thanks for the reply

 

[Plebeian]

It is not just the logging equipment that you need to consider for an efficient operation. You will also have to consider a certain amount of equipment to do basic maintenance even for a small operation and what level of spare parts that you should carry on site or nearby - tools, alternator drive belts, spare hydraulic hose, diesel supply, air compressor, welder/ electric power supply etc

With used machinery you need to assess each machine on its merits and minus points. If it is an older machine you need to consider what spare parts are in a warehouse within a close range and what is likely to be sourced from the manufacturer or unavailable/ sourced from a dismantler.

If suitable machines are available to rent, you might trying to rent before you buy, you can send it back a bit easier than if you buy something that is not suitable.

Have you completed a PLM type course?

 

[Turbo_Drive]

No, I haven't done any PLM training. I have thought of leasing instead of purchasing though, just haven't talked to the local dealers yet. As for mantenance Ive got a shop with some tool from when we farmed, air compressor, welders, fuels tanks, ect, but I know there's more ill to buy though. I'm planning to build a tool/ fuel trailer that will hopefully have what we will need to fix breakdowns and make up hydraulic hoses on sight. As for equipment what I was looking at running what most are using In this area, that way my chances of the local dealers carrying parts for will be better than if I run equipment that hardly anyone is using anymore. I know I'm a ways from getting started but that's fine, I'm not lookin at jumping in to it. I just know Its something I I'd love doing of possible.

 

[kiwi450x]

Have you got work lined up? I'm inclined to think that the work would dictate (at least to some degree) what gear you need?

 

[partsandservice]

If south Alabama is anything like Georgia there is a logger shortage, so work should not be a problem. If there was money to be made there would not be that shortage. The margins on a cut and haul are slim. Buying new and starting out with 15k a month equipment payment, wages insurance ect. is a lot to take on. Having seen this scenario over and over, I offer up this advice not to discourage you but to help through your preparation. If you plan on working on a ton basis, production is the key. If you buy new you can will just have payments to begin with, then comes payments, repairs ( down time, this also when you will start considering a second skidder) and tires. Then you pay-off your equipment and it is so worn out from high production it is time to replace it. The skidder will have to be replaced most often. Being mechanically inclined is almost a must. As is being a early bird. And then there is trucking. You can cut drag and pile all the wood you want, but it has to be delivered to the mill to get paid. Contract hauling is an option, but owner operators can be fickle and rightfully so as they try to make their bills. When you are in good wood and trucks are not waiting long to get loaded every thing is fine. But then you get in the viney pulp wood and production slows to a creep, those trucks will seek other loads rather then wait a couple hours to get loaded. Now you get to get in the trucking business too. Cash flow is not profit, I repeat CASH FLOW IS NOT PROFIT !!! All that said, logging is a way life and a good one for some. A good woman to keep the books, accept your absence and raise the younguns till they a old to go to work in the woods would be a bonus. I like prentice loaders , tigercat bunchers and cat skidders. I now title says equipment advice but I could not help myself.

 

[Logman]

Not sure if you are aware of this, but IP recently announced they are permanently closing their papermill in Courtland, AL sometime in the first quarter of next year. That's a huge mill, using about 350 loads of pulpwood daily.

I notice your location is southern Alabama, and it's possible you won't see the affects of the Courtland mill closing... But I wouldn't count on it. I'm in northwest Tennessee, about 175 miles from Courtland, and I'm already seeing the affects in the form of lower pulpwood prices and quotas. Loggers are already diverting some of their pulpwood production away from Courtland to other mills, and it doesn't take much of a supply/demand imbalance to cause huge headaches.

Once the Courtland mill begins shuttering (phase 1 starts in December), mills in central Alabama will be flooded with wood (if they are not already). That means central Alabama mills will no longer be competing nor venturing into southern Alabama for their wood supply. You can imagine what that means, and I can promise it's not a good thing.

Also keep in mind hundreds of loggers are going to be affected by the closure. They are going to be headed south and north looking for work, and they'll be willing to work cheap to get themselves established and feed their crews.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I don't think this is the best of times to be looking at starting a logging crew in our region. I'd at least give it to spring and see how things shake out.

 

[Vigilant]

I would also talk with some of the local contractors, and listen to what they have to say. I would be tempted to wait a year or so, and see what becomes of this fragile, zombie economy a la barack.

 

[Turbo_Drive]

Partsandservice, thanks for the advise, just about everything you have said had crossed my mind more than once, which makes me feel like I have the right train of thought going into this.

Logman, I sure haven't heard of the IP mill closing yet. That's going to be a big hit on alot of people, and like you said not just around that area but the areas north and south where other loggers are gonna have to compete with the ones searching for work.

I have talked with a few companies and they have all said they have plenty of work for me, but I think I'm gonna hold off for a month or 2, maybe until the first of the year. That way ill see what goes on with this mill closing and how it effects this area.

 

[Logman]

I hate to be the pessimist, but I'm afraid the Courtland closure is going to foul up our markets for years to come. I have roughly 3000 acres of hardwood timberlands, so I'd love to be more optimistic. But I can't see any good coming from this.

Everything looked peaches and cream for as far the eye could see: Housing starts rebounding; pulpwood prices setting new highs; tie and cant demand excellent; high-grade hardwoods moving towards all time highs; and logger capacity restraints keeping over-production in check. All that changed in the blink of an eye when the mill closure was announced on the morning of Sept. 11th, 2013. I figure I took an instant 20% haircut on my standing timber inventory. Maybe more.

Even the tie and cant market will see negative impacts. With hardwood pulpwood gatewood prices near $50 a ton, lots of loggers were throwing their tie and scragg logs into the pulpwood pile. Now those same loggers are more closely merchandising their log sorts at the landing, and tie and pallet mill log inventories are quickly building.

With that said, I do think hardwood saw timber will remain a relatively bright spot for several more months, maybe even years. Export demand is good, and domestic demand is rebounding nicely. Whiskey barrel demand is so high that most cooperages can't procure enough white oak stave logs to fill all their orders. If you could get into the hardwood saw timber side of things, you might stand a better chance of making a go at it while the pulpwood market recovers.

 

[Turbo_Drive]

Logman, pm sent