Spec creep and the disappearance of the 10-12 ton class excavators

[MG84]

It seems like there is becoming an ever increasing void between the 8 ton machines and the 140-145 size machines. There is a big difference in performance between a machine weighing 18000-20000lbs and ones that are now closing in on 35000lbs+ The 120's all became 130's, now are becoming 140's, and many are opting for the zero tail swing version (145's) which are even heavier yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these used to be the machines that were targeted at home builders/residential development, light commercial development and general construction. You could tow them legally with a tandem dump truck and a tandem axle 15-20T pintle hitch trailer. Now with this class of machine spec'd the way most do (road liner pads, dozer blade, quick coupler, progressive thumb, etc) its really hard to tow them legally with a tandem axle trailer and be under the 34K tandem group weigh limits.

Is there just not a market anymore for a 25000-27000lb machine like the Hitachi Ex100 or Ex120 from years past? I know there is the new Cat 310, but that's about the only offering in this size range now. I've been casually looking at larger machines for a few years, but an 8-ton is only a little better than a 6-ton IMO, and then it's a big jump in size (and price) to a 140-145 which is a lot harder to move. What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

 

[John C.]

That's the exact question I asked a few years back when I worked for the Cat dealership. I had the conversation with several sales reps and got pretty much this explanation.
All the small excavator lines basically started out as gray market machines. About the smallest machines you could find at the end of the seventies and early eighties were Drott 35 and 40s on tracks. Then the gray market hit with the Hitachi and Komatsu 120s and 150 size units. Japan went on hard times and machines there were only allowed to work until they reached a certain amount of hours. The trade imbalance also means that exchange rates went way out of wack and the price of shipping something from Japan to here got cheap. The small contractor quickly steps out of their 580 Case backhoes and bought gray Komatsu's or Hitachi for less money than a new backhoe and the small contractor industry went crazy. The developers started out paying by the hour and then started doing bids from multiple contractors. The big manufacturers saw the importers making money so started putting their product in this market. Then came some even smaller machines and the 80s started showing up all over. Most had backfill blades and now the small contractor started working stumps and some driveways and such. The 80 was a lot less money to purchase but the contractors charged the same money for the 80 as they did for the 120. Now days it's mostly the minis doing all the landscaping work and a lot of housing development market. There were few huge developments going in now days. Fifty homes is kind of normal in Western Washington. At the same time the performance of the smaller machines has increased over time and I've seen plenty of good operators take an 80 and do everything a 120 did and make more money doing it.
The zero tail swing machines are something different. I was seeing and working on them from the gray market back in the mid 2000s. I had a couple of mid sized contractors with PC78 purple people eaters. They were doing underground utilities for large residential developments. Three hundred to five hundred houses at a time. Again the big manufacturers saw they were missing out on some money so started bringing their products into this market. That lasted until the economy got iffy so I put together a deal with the local Cat dealer around 2005 for all their used machine appraisal and I sat the next twelve years out of the gray market repairs. Now days the manufacturers don't automatically assume that small machines won't work in this market. I haven't seen anything really new from the gray market is some years that hasn't already been being sold here by the big dogs.

The small contractors today do a one ton pickup with a fifth wheel and carry a 305 Cat between jobs that only last about a month. I had one customer running six minis, a couple of rollers, one dozer, four pickup trucks, two trailers and no dump trucks. The world is changing all the time. Anybody want to add their experiences over the last twenty years?

 

[Deere500a]

Deere had the small market for long time before it became rainbow of gray colors/brands,Cat was a private club & Case was odd ducks.80s/90s was the 14ton 490 & step up 590,1990s 8ton 190. Remember ads all geared for small owners with a dump & right tag trailer looking to expand . Lot of beat 30yr old 490s out there for sale

 

[Tyler d4c]

Much like John c said around here if it cant be hualed with a pickup truck you may as well take the 20 ton machine and do the work faster. Here in the dead/dieing area of steel towns and mining towns everyone with a diesel pickup and machine thinks there a contractor. Tho for the grey market machines our 307ssr and 312c have made lots of moneys. Dad and uncle could never have afforded those 2 machines if the greymarket stuff wasnt around.

 

[MG84]

That's the exact question I asked a few years back when I worked for the Cat dealership. I had the conversation with several sales reps and got pretty much this explanation.
All the small excavator lines basically started out as gray market machines. About the smallest machines you could find at the end of the seventies and early eighties were Drott 35 and 40s on tracks. Then the gray market hit with the Hitachi and Komatsu 120s and 150 size units. Japan went on hard times and machines there were only allowed to work until they reached a certain amount of hours. The trade imbalance also means that exchange rates went way out of wack and the price of shipping something from Japan to here got cheap. The small contractor quickly steps out of their 580 Case backhoes and bought gray Komatsu's or Hitachi for less money than a new backhoe and the small contractor industry went crazy. The developers started out paying by the hour and then started doing bids from multiple contractors. The big manufacturers saw the importers making money so started putting their product in this market. Then came some even smaller machines and the 80s started showing up all over. Most had backfill blades and now the small contractor started working stumps and some driveways and such. The 80 was a lot less money to purchase but the contractors charged the same money for the 80 as they did for the 120. Now days it's mostly the minis doing all the landscaping work and a lot of housing development market. There were few huge developments going in now days. Fifty homes is kind of normal in Western Washington. At the same time the performance of the smaller machines has increased over time and I've seen plenty of good operators take an 80 and do everything a 120 did and make more money doing it.
The zero tail swing machines are something different. I was seeing and working on them from the gray market back in the mid 2000s. I had a couple of mid sized contractors with PC78 purple people eaters. They were doing underground utilities for large residential developments. Three hundred to five hundred houses at a time. Again the big manufacturers saw they were missing out on some money so started bringing their products into this market. That lasted until the economy got iffy so I put together a deal with the local Cat dealer around 2005 for all their used machine appraisal and I sat the next twelve years out of the gray market repairs. Now days the manufacturers don't automatically assume that small machines won't work in this market. I haven't seen anything really new from the gray market is some years that hasn't already been being sold here by the big dogs.

Thanks for the interesting and historical insight, all that makes a lot of sense. Basically nowadays profitability is driving the market as much or more so than machine capability.

The small contractors today do a one ton pickup with a fifth wheel and carry a 305 Cat between jobs that only last about a month. I had one customer running six minis, a couple of rollers, one dozer, four pickup trucks, two trailers and no dump trucks. The world is changing all the time. Anybody want to add their experiences over the last twenty years?

Much like John c said around here if it cant be hualed with a pickup truck you may as well take the 20 ton machine and do the work faster. Here in the dead/dieing area of steel towns and mining towns everyone with a diesel pickup and machine thinks there a contractor. Tho for the grey market machines our 307ssr and 312c have made lots of moneys. Dad and uncle could never have afforded those 2 machines if the greymarket stuff wasnt around.

While I rarely tow mine with a pickup, my 5-ton mini ex is one of my most used and most profitable pieces of equipment.

 

[BC Placer gold]

We are really liking our 10 ton (1994 Hitachi EX100-1).

Moved up north on a tandem roll-back. Just legal on all axles.

Basically just sits on a pad and moves coarse tailings for us with a 52” 1 yard bucket. Saves significantly on fuel for the 210 as well as providing sufficient reach/capacity.

Kind of atypical use no doubt; but a perfect complement to our 5 ton (which feeds wash plant).

 

[Joe H]

Ford did it with T-birds and then Mustangs, From sports car (sorta) to land yacht.

Joe H

 

[MG84]

Ford did it with T-birds and then Mustangs, From sports car (sorta) to land yacht.

Joe H

Yeah the Mustangs went from the small '65 to the huge '73, but then they came to their senses again with the Fox bodies. Ever since then though, every iteration has gotten bigger. Their trucks are going the same way.

All the new F250's I've seen are 11000lb GVWR or over. This kind of defeats the purpose of a 3/4 ton truck. Now you need a DOT number for just the truck itself if used in interstate commerce and they've only made the 'legal' towing capacity smaller to stay under CDL. I sometimes wonder if the people in Corporate even think about these sorts of things?

 

[MG84]

We are really liking our 10 ton (1994 Hitachi EX100-1).

Moved up north on a tandem roll-back. Just legal on all axles.

Basically just sits on a pad and moves coarse tailings for us with a 52” 1 yard bucket. Saves significantly on fuel for the 210 as well as providing sufficient reach/capacity.

Kind of atypical use no doubt; but a perfect complement to our 5 ton (which feeds wash plant).

The bucket size, reach and breakout are the big benefits I see of a 10-12 ton vs the smaller machines. IMO the 8 tons are too close to a 5-6t to justify owning both and are too big for a lot of 'mini ex' type work. A 5 ton and a 10 ton sounds like a good combination.

 

[Deere500a]

Mustang E sad times. 8 ton will not match 10 ton it may run faster & keep up but why would I bale water all day to keep up & longevity is not there. Worked for a contractor had couple yr old 5 ton Takeuchi's with adapter swing 580 hoe buckets all had hydraulic gremlins in & out yard shop I can guess why 100% duty cycle.

 

[Tyler d4c]

Yeah the Mustangs went from the small '65 to the huge '73, but then they came to their senses again with the Fox bodies. Ever since then though, every iteration has gotten bigger. Their trucks are going the same way.

All the new F250's I've seen are 11000lb GVWR or over. This kind of defeats the purpose of a 3/4 ton truck. Now you need a DOT number for just the truck itself if used in interstate commerce and they've only made the 'legal' towing capacity smaller to stay under CDL. I sometimes wonder if the people in Corporate even think about these sorts of things?

As of a few years ago you could order them with a 10000 gvw ans the high tow rating so you could be legal under 26001 with a 14 or 16000 trailer the cdl part depends on state of course

 

[Deere500a]

No way around a trailer combo why a A lic

 

[Tyler d4c]

No way around a trailer combo why a A lic

In pa you can combo a pickup at 26000 and pill a trailer any weight ad long as the truck gross plus trailer gross is 26000 or less on just a C

 

[Deere500a]

 

[Tyler d4c]

View attachment 360865

Wrong 10000 pound rule applys only over 26 combo

 

[Tyler d4c]

And if your not wrong it must not be too enforced like most dot related ordeals tho at one time here i know the 10000 rule appled and suposedly it was changed at some point a truck here at one time if it had air brakes you had to go get a endorsment for air if it was under cdl that is no longer a thing either

 

[Deere500a]

Sorry you so right hot wheeler. Get a certificate to drive

 

[Tyler d4c]

Sorry you so right hot wheeler. Get a certificate to drive

Thats the wifes I got a class A so whats your point if dot laws where a bit more clear and the same in all states would help...

 

[Deere500a]

 

[Deere500a]

I'm LIC to pull a trailer