Is anyone having any problems with the new Cat 285/275 CTLs?

[AMBMike]

Has anyone checked to see if the tub is twisted? I experienced this on a machine I owned, it had a 2" twist from corner to corner which created abnormal track wear. It was a forestry mulcher so the difference as far as doing finished grade work didn't matter. The manufacturer wouldn't acknowledge the fault but every other machine around the world had the same twist.
I suggest removing the arms and check that they are correct, then measure up all of the rest of the machine.
Having undercarriage suspension makes the fix so much easier.

The loader arms are confirmed twisted on ours, as well as the set of arms that was ordered to replace them. Measurements were taken all over the rest of the machine and nothing that would cause this was noted.

Our dealer claimed we were the only ones experiencing this but admitted that the only other machines they'd sold at the time were either set up for forestry or went to farmers.

The 275/285 CTLs don't have a suspended undercarriage like the 255/265 or the older 259-299 series machine. They are essentially a miniature dozer undercarriage.

 

[Tones]

The loader arms are confirmed twisted on ours, as well as the set of arms that was ordered to replace them. Measurements were taken all over the rest of the machine and nothing that would cause this was noted.

Our dealer claimed we were the only ones experiencing this but admitted that the only other machines they'd sold at the time were either set up for forestry or went to farmers.

The 275/285 CTLs don't have a suspended undercarriage like the 255/265 or the older 259-299 series machine. They are essentially a miniature dozer undercarriage.

We're the replacement arms measured before fitting them?
With my machine it was the welding process that caused the twist even though it was welded in a jig, same thing maybe occurring here

 

[AMBMike]

We're the replacement arms measured before fitting them?

They were measured before being removed from the shipping pallet.
In fact, last time I drove by, they were still on that pallet at the dealer as they were no better than the arms already on the machine.

 

[j-dubya]

Interesting thoughts. Thank you.

How do you see the equalizer bar causing the symptoms you're having? Not saying your wrong, just trying to wrap my head around it.

With the equalizer bar undercarriage the machine frame or tub is essentially resting on the undercarriage through three points, those being the equalizer bar center pin and the pivot shafts on either side just ahead of the drive sprockets.
This means the level of the entire machine, with the exception of the undercarriage, is determined by the level of the pivot shafts until the equalizer bar pivots to the point of contacting the machine frame.

What we're seeing may be different but on our machine and others I've tested the arm/coupler/bucket level differed from the frame of the machine itself.

You’re exactly right, an equalizer undercarriage is suspended upon those three points. And on paper, same as the arms “on paper”, everything is square and correct. But the end result after welding and assembly, is differing. Due to a manufacturing defect, tolerance stacking, or combination of both, brings us to the current machines. Mess up any of those three points, and now you’re out of level. If you’ve ever leveled a lab scale, you’d see. The apex of the triangle is typically fixed, and the two corners are on adjustable feet. That’s how the scale is able to be leveled regardless of surface.

To put my particular situation another way: my cutting edge is off due to my machine “listing” to one side. If I had to choose the first place to check, and would be also be the most economical point to correct my machine and get it to match the surface it’s sitting on, is the pin and bushings of the frame mount of the equalizer bar. I measured and comparated multiple points on the tub and the track frames. Track frames are pretty much identical, including the equalizer bar points. The tub is within 1/8” at the rear, and increases to 1/4” discrepancy by the time you get to the front. Putting a spirit level on multiple horizontal and vertical surfaces along the frame, tub, loader arm towers, and arms themselves out to the coupler, all show the bubble touching the line when sitting on a level floor.

So, on my machine, the track frames are level/square, and my tub/frame AND arms/coupler are off, which we know results in the cutting edge being raised on one side. Track frame matches the floor, everything else matches each other but doesn’t match the floor…how are those linked?

I’d be curious to know how exactly the center pin of the equalizer bar is ultimately placed and welded. Is it line bored after the tub and track frames are all set to level? Or are the individual parts just set in their jigs, welded, and then bolted together and hope for the best? Because how I’d be fixing my machine - provided the equalizer bar itself is correct and symmetrical, is leveling/matching all major pieces and then line boring that center pin. I think tolerance stacking plus some jig issues and heat warp resulted in my product.

Now what if you combine some arms that have the same tolerance stacking or jig issues…

Overall I’m happy with the machine. Most of my gripes besides the obvious lack cutting edge matching the surface the machine is sitting on, are electrical/coding issues in the display. Simple stuff that could be easily fixed with a software update, but Cat and the dealer are dragging their feet with any sort of response.

 

[Nige]

I’d be curious to know how exactly the center pin of the equalizer bar is ultimately placed and welded. Is it line bored after the tub and track frames are all set to level?

Certainly on the bigger machines all line-boring is done after the structure has been completely welded.
On smaller machines like this product line I don't know.

 

[AMBMike]

So, on my machine, the track frames are level/square, and my tub/frame AND arms/coupler are off, which we know results in the cutting edge being raised on one side. Track frame matches the floor, everything else matches each other but doesn’t match the floor…how are those linked?

Overall I’m happy with the machine. Most of my gripes besides the obvious lack cutting edge matching the surface the machine is sitting on, are electrical/coding issues in the display. Simple stuff that could be easily fixed with a software update, but Cat and the dealer are dragging their feet with any sort of response.

Gotcha. Thanks.

And I'm right there with you on the display. Cat sent a service tech out recently to replace the coupler locking pins due to them not latching correctly on some attachments and I asked him about a software update. According to him there's nothing available.

My other gripes are minor as well.
1. I'm unable to dump a complete container of DEF in the tank. It'll accept about 75 percent before overflowing, even when running it to the point of the machine threatening to de rate.
2. The 14 pin aux electrical connector is placed below the auxiliary hydraulic connectors. We've had 3 of the 5 factory connectors replaced due to leaks and it always contaminates the electrical connection.

On another note, I believe you said earlier you were waiting on a 285 with a ripper. Does your machine have a ripper mounted?

 

[j-dubya]

Gotcha. Thanks.

And I'm right there with you on the display. Cat sent a service tech out recently to replace the coupler locking pins due to them not latching correctly on some attachments and I asked him about a software update. According to him there's nothing available.

My other gripes are minor as well.
1. I'm unable to dump a complete container of DEF in the tank. It'll accept about 75 percent before overflowing, even when running it to the point of the machine threatening to de rate.
2. The 14 pin aux electrical connector is placed below the auxiliary hydraulic connectors. We've had 3 of the 5 factory connectors replaced due to leaks and it always contaminates the electrical connection.

On another note, I believe you said earlier you were waiting on a 285 with a ripper. Does your machine have a ripper mounted?

The DEF tank size is absurd and yet another perfect example of an engineer designing something having never been in the field. Such a simple thing got overlooked.

My display gripes are related to using the quick coupler and if you try to back up too quickly after cycling the coupler - you know, because you’re being productive - then the top quarter of the camera image disappears. The same will happen if you try to unlock the parking brake before getting the lap bar down, or closing the door. You have to stop and cycle the ignition to reset the screen. Due to the fisheye effect, the top quarter of the image is actually how you see where you’re going. The rest of the image is just the rear door and a couple of feet from the bumper.

As for the ripper, I am still on the fence because of the size, and likely Cat’s price. Originally I had planned to talk to the guys in Australia who have built my buckets, as they had pioneered the ripper concept for Takeuchis and other brands. While their new design for the Cat next gen’s is much tighter to the machine than the Cat design, you basically have to give up the side cameras…which I refuse. The Cat ripper sticks out so far though. But I would like to have the ripper, and it would allow me to get rid of the add-on counterweights that rob ground clearance.

Stupid me forgot to add the rear aux kit when I ordered the machine.

 

[AMBMike]

The DEF tank size is absurd and yet another perfect example of an engineer designing something having never been in the field. Such a simple thing got overlooked.

My display gripes are related to using the quick coupler and if you try to back up too quickly after cycling the coupler - you know, because you’re being productive - then the top quarter of the camera image disappears. The same will happen if you try to unlock the parking brake before getting the lap bar down, or closing the door. You have to stop and cycle the ignition to reset the screen. Due to the fisheye effect, the top quarter of the image is actually how you see where you’re going. The rest of the image is just the rear door and a couple of feet from the bumper.

As for the ripper, I am still on the fence because of the size, and likely Cat’s price. Originally I had planned to talk to the guys in Australia who have built my buckets, as they had pioneered the ripper concept for Takeuchis and other brands. While their new design for the Cat next gen’s is much tighter to the machine than the Cat design, you basically have to give up the side cameras…which I refuse. The Cat ripper sticks out so far though. But I would like to have the ripper, and it would allow me to get rid of the add-on counterweights that rob ground clearance.

Stupid me forgot to add the rear aux kit when I ordered the machine.

I could maybe understand the DEF tank sizing if the 299 didn't actually accept a full container. It seems like something easily researched when deciding on tank sizing ...

I actually really like being able to see the rear bumper in the camera feed. I sometimes end up working in tight areas and being able to see the rear of the machine in real time is a life saver.

Ours doesn't have a ripper mounted yet but the rear aux kit is in place and ready. They keep telling me we'll be getting a ripper soon but we'll see. I spend a lot of time grading with a GB124 blade and hard spots are a time killer.
I'd really like to try Sharpgrade's new GS130 grader attachment. It has small rippers as an option plus side shift, side wings, blade pitch, and a detachable front wheel assembly.

Do you have the Norm Engineering buckets? If so which ones? I'd love to have their big 4 in 1 bucket for our machine. I've added a 10" spill rack to the top of the 92" bucket but it could use even more.

 

[j-dubya]

I could maybe understand the DEF tank sizing if the 299 didn't actually accept a full container. It seems like something easily researched when deciding on tank sizing ...

I actually really like being able to see the rear bumper in the camera feed. I sometimes end up working in tight areas and being able to see the rear of the machine in real time is a life saver.

Ours doesn't have a ripper mounted yet but the rear aux kit is in place and ready. They keep telling me we'll be getting a ripper soon but we'll see. I spend a lot of time grading with a GB124 blade and hard spots are a time killer.
I'd really like to try Sharpgrade's new GS130 grader attachment. It has small rippers as an option plus side shift, side wings, blade pitch, and a detachable front wheel assembly.

Do you have the Norm Engineering buckets? If so which ones? I'd love to have their big 4 in 1 bucket for our machine. I've added a 10" spill rack to the top of the 92" bucket but it could use even more.

Yes, they’re the Norm pro series buckets. Although, they’re back from my old Takeuchi, so they’re a bit narrow for the new Cat machine. I have the 4in1, and then had them build me a GP bucket with the same design as their 4in1.

I have an expensive idea I’d love to be able to make happen one day: take the smart controller off the GB124 and adapt it to the Sharpgrade unit. I think the Cat grader is too small for the 275/285 class. But I like the smart controls.

 

[AMBMike]

Yes, they’re the Norm pro series buckets. Although, they’re back from my old Takeuchi, so they’re a bit narrow for the new Cat machine. I have the 4in1, and then had them build me a GP bucket with the same design as their 4in1.

I have an expensive idea I’d love to be able to make happen one day: take the smart controller off the GB124 and adapt it to the Sharpgrade unit. I think the Cat grader is too small for the 275/285 class. But I like the smart controls.

It is too small. Our dealer has told us that Cat is building a grader blade for the larger machines but I haven't heard that anywhere else.

On the Sharpgrade, they apparently have a system that enables them to run their blades from the carrier machine's joysticks as long as they're electronic and not pilot controls. I think they call it Simulgrade or something similar.

 

[KSSS]

I saw the Sharpgrade 130 at Conexpo, I spoke with the SG owner about it. I have rippers on the DL550 so that is not of interest to me, but having the side shift on the blade would be very nice. I had that on my BC grader and I like that feature. Being able to curl the blade would also be helpful. I played with the blade controls that work off the handle. It would take some getting used to for sure. I am not sure that I wouldn't prefer the buttons that I have on my 128. I redid them from what the machine came with and its much better. My concern with the 130 is having 3D Topcon control. Some of that it sounded like still needed to be figured out. Sharpgrade is currently the only blade option that I think will stand up to the 285 and DL550 if you are working it hard. The 130 is not cheap, and with the added functions over the 128 it has a lot going, a lot of hoses and so forth. However if you have enough machine to take advantage of what it can do, I think it would be worth it. It certainly takes some hp to run, but it is really more about tractive effort.

 

[CM1995]

The Sharpgrade 130 is the real deal.

Snapped this at Conexpo.

 

[j-dubya]

It is too small. Our dealer has told us that Cat is building a grader blade for the larger machines but I haven't heard that anywhere else.

On the Sharpgrade, they apparently have a system that enables them to run their blades from the carrier machine's joysticks as long as they're electronic and not pilot controls. I think they call it Simulgrade or something similar.

Originally, I had thought I would be able to use all the buttons on the new Cat joysticks to run my Skeer. The lower aux buttons are only accessible by Cat attachments. They are not standard voltage, but a proprietary CAN setup. While not applicable to the Skeer, I’d love to be able to run the Sharpgrade like the Cat smart grader to be able to convert the joystick movements themselves to control the lift and tilt of the blade, plus the assist capabilities. Very intuitive.

 

[j-dubya]

I saw the Sharpgrade 130 at Conexpo, I spoke with the SG owner about it. I have rippers on the DL550 so that is not of interest to me, but having the side shift on the blade would be very nice. I had that on my BC grader and I like that feature. Being able to curl the blade would also be helpful. I played with the blade controls that work off the handle. It would take some getting used to for sure. I am not sure that I wouldn't prefer the buttons that I have on my 128. I redid them from what the machine came with and its much better. My concern with the 130 is having 3D Topcon control. Some of that it sounded like still needed to be figured out. Sharpgrade is currently the only blade option that I think will stand up to the 285 and DL550 if you are working it hard. The 130 is not cheap, and with the added functions over the 128 it has a lot going, a lot of hoses and so forth. However if you have enough machine to take advantage of what it can do, I think it would be worth it. It certainly takes some hp to run, but it is really more about tractive effort.

I remember you from the first time I posted on this forum. How are you liking the Sharpgrade after about a year of owning it? Both the unit itself as well as the customer support?

Is your 550 on steel tracks or rubber?

 

[southernman13]

I know it’s not what you want but you could weld a mounting plate on one of your buckets with enough angle to compensate for the arm being un level. That should work? I’d be trying to get
My money back on the machine but this could possibly work until it gets figured out idk. Good luck

 

[KSSS]

I remember you from the first time I posted on this forum. How are you liking the Sharpgrade after about a year of owning it? Both the unit itself as well as the customer support?

Is your 550 on steel tracks or rubber?

I like the SG really well. I redid the buttons that control the blade functions so they are larger. Other than the buttons on the one I got I think it is a quality system. They have continued to advance the operational control from the model I have. The joystick control is pretty cool, but with the 130 and all the functions it has, it would take some time to convert the actions to muscle memory. I am able to push an enormous amount of material with it, I don't see the Level Best Version holding up to that. Doesn't surprise me that Cat may be building a more super duty version for the 285. I have rubber tracks. I do wish at times, a lot of times actually that I had gotten single grousers. They now have rubber pads for the single grouser tracks, that had that been available, I for sure would have gotten the grousers. The customer support has overall been good between SG and RDO who I bought it from and did the initial setup. That set up had to be redone, but the guy that did the first set up was a clown, but we got it worked through. The SG is very accurate, combine with the Topcon Total Station control, I don't think you could ask for anymore accuracy.

 

[blacktopper]

UPDATE: Caterpillar sent a rep out along with my dealers techs. Cat now aknoweldges there is a problem and they are currently working on fabbing up some saddles to control the side shift of the loader arms up front. I am interested to see what they come up with and will repost updates as this moves forward. Hoping for a decent solution.

 

[KSSS]

That is good to hear. I would love to know what made Cat now acknowledge that they have a problem. Enough customers complained? Maybe this thread all over the interweb? Because anyone who runs these things knows there needs to be a stop, apparently the older models have them and I think every machine on the market has some way of stopping that side to side motion. This fix is easy, the crooked loader arms, not so much, maybe they are working their way through the issues on these machines and they will get to the loader arms as well.

 

[AMBMike]

UPDATE: Caterpillar sent a rep out along with my dealers techs. Cat now aknoweldges there is a problem and they are currently working on fabbing up some saddles to control the side shift of the loader arms up front. I am interested to see what they come up with and will repost updates as this moves forward. Hoping for a decent solution.

Thanks for the updates!

I look forward to seeing their solution.

 

[AMBMike]

The Cat dealer's PSR showed up on my jobsite out of the blue the other day and spent half an hour looking at the arms and line boring work.

I showed him how the line boring changed the bucket cylinder geometry and the twisting effect it has on the arms.

I also pointed out the lack of side to side restraint for the arms.

He didn't say if anything is being done about this but it's kinda nice to know it's still in the back of their minds...

He did say he would operate some new machines and see how they are in regards to the arms being twisted.