Tamrock and 3116 Cat Won't Start

[Nige]

No electrical schematic for that engine S/N prefix, or any other 3116 Industrial for that matter. I have no idea why.
According to the engine S/N the shutoff solenoid is a 125-5772, energize to run type. Specifications attached.

 

[John C.]

This thing is kind of like a boat. The engine runs most of the time at low idle and throttles itself up when you operate something. The air compressor makes the engine run the fastest. I agree with you on it should have three wires and it might. Whoever ran the thing last pulled the booms in tight so access to the front side of the engine is like crawling into a cave of wires, hoses and valves all pushing and pulling at you.

 

[John C.]

Thanks Nige! That gives me something to go on now. I can start tracing wiring back to the source.

Much appreciated.

 

[Nige]

Amazingly the only place I can find that 125-5772 fuel solenoid shown on an electrical schematic is on a Barber Greene paver. Definitely 2-wire, Batt+ from key switch and ground. I've attached the schematic just in case it might be of any help.

 

[John C.]

That would make sense as they are similar platforms for electrical and hydraulics, just different implements. I kind of think there is a something like a neutral start switch function in this thing somewhere. I'll be back up there later in the week to let the fun continue.

Thanks again!

 

[CM1995]

Brain fart, the machine is a Tamrock and not a Tamarak.

Fixed.

 

[John C.]

Much appreciated

 

[John C.]

Got back out to the drill today. I jumped 24 volts to the fuel solenoid, heard it snap so hit the key and the engine fired up instantly. Disconnected my jumper and the engine shut down. Disconnected the stock wire and there was no voltage on it when the key was turned on. I pulled it out where I could follow it down some and it went into a harness which disappeared into the machine rear frame. I think I found it at that electrical box. I got home and checked the wiring diagram and it says the solenoid is a shutdown solenoid and it doesn't show where or how even that is supposed go or what makes it work. At least I know how to make it run so I'll go from there next time I'm up there. So far, the only good info I have on this machine is from Nige half a world away.

 

[Cmark]

You might have done it already, but the first thing I would check is the Estops.

 

[John C.]

There are four or them and I was thinking about how to get at them as I was leaving there tonight. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[excavator]

Sorry I didn't think of this sooner but I can probably check somethings on my customers machine. I will likely be out there next week sometime. I might be able to figure out where the power comes from in the panel ect.

 

[John C.]

Any and all tips are certainly appreciated. Has your guy's machine done any drilling yet?

I did check the Estops just by pushing them in and then resetting them. When pushed in, everything stops including the ability to turn the starter. Turn the key to start and nothing happens. It didn't occur to me that there might be something in the stops that might allow the engine to turn over but not power up the fuel solenoid. Thanks Mark.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Some generator estops have more than 1 circuit through them, so it could indeed be a cause, although a slight possibility.

 

[John C.]

Spent most of yesterday on the machine and found out some things. I located which relays do what up to a certain extent. There is a safety system in addition to the estops. It works like a Murphy system to shut down the engine at low oil pressure, high coolant temp, high compressor oil temp, high hydraulic oil temp. The service manual does not have a common type of wiring diagram. It has pages showing particular parts of the system and there is no explanation of how the system works or any of its parameters. The symbols all look different and they don't explain how power gets from a fuse to a relay. I pulled out the operator seat and started pulling panels to check the wiring and the hidden relays behind them. There is about a six inch tunnel in the rear corner of the cab for hoses and wiring harness which is just a hole for the rodents to climb through. I went back today with a generator and a shop vac. I'll have to get some kind of old blanket or something to pack into the access tunnel.

At any rate I got the engine to start by jumping power across a relay and moved the boom out of the way. That's all well and good but now the drill functions don't work. They aren't part of the safety system. I have photos on the camera but haven't down loaded them into the computer yet. I'll post them in a bit.

 

[John C.]

The relays are mounted on the door and all are numbered.

This is the lower bar. K10 is connected to emergency circuits and affects K5, K4 and upsets K6 which supplies voltage to the fuel solenoid on the engine. Someone jumped one solenoid with a wire to complete a circuit I didn't do that. I got a hot wire from K4 and ran it to the coil on K6 to turn on the solenoid with the key in the cab.


The K7 relay is the main that is an interruptor when any of the Estops are pushed. K1 is the starter relay the is interrupted when K7 is interrupted and will not allow the starter to work.

 

[John C.]

Here is the kind of things that the rodents around here seem to like to do. I've already vacuumed piles out before I remembered I had my good camera.



The gauge panel is on a hinge. The buggers had a nest up there also.


Some bedding that I threw out.


More in the can.

 

[Simon C]

View attachment 269956
The relays are mounted on the door and all are numbered.
View attachment 269957
This is the lower bar. K10 is connected to emergency circuits and affects K5, K4 and upsets K6 which supplies voltage to the fuel solenoid on the engine. Someone jumped one solenoid with a wire to complete a circuit I didn't do that. I got a hot wire from K4 and ran it to the coil on K6 to turn on the solenoid with the key in the cab.

View attachment 269958
The K7 relay is the main that is an interruptor when any of the Estops are pushed. K1 is the starter relay the is interrupted when K7 is interrupted and will not allow the starter to work.

It looks like K7 relay has green corrosion into the wire. Would need to be fixed unless I am seeing wrong.
Simon C

 

[John C.]

It has some on it but works OK. It is the main relay to power everything in the enclosure. It is operated by the key switch. Right now I'm figuring to leave thing alone if they work and focus on things that don't work.

 

[John C.]

I has a bunch of electrical stuff going on and saw these odd ball looking fuses. Turns out they aren't fuses at all. The parts book calls them circuit breakers.


Most were corroded on the inside and some probably wouldn't break a circuit and some didn't have any continuity. Book shows all them at 15 amps. Out they came and standard spade fuses replaced them.

 

[John C.]

The relays were common automotive types but operated on 24 volts. Basically five separate spades that have standard numbers. Number 30 is always hot and with the switch closed it power number 87A. Number 86 is the signal connection which powers an internal coil that grounds through number 85. When there is power at 86 the switch cycles to spade number 87. What was great on this installation is that the buss bars under the relays are all numbered to correspond to each relay. If you make the photo larger you can see what I'm talking about.



Note that the one relay has a copper mounting lug. I got that from the local Napa store. The relays are set up to operate many of the machine functions but they also provide safety systems to shut off the engine down.

I got all the electrical stuff working last Friday and then the drifter wouldn't go up or down. I noticed the chain would flinch a little and the hydraulic hoses jumped so the electrical was working. I looked at the chain and it was rusted pretty bad. I coated it with penetrating oil and graphite chain lube and let it sit over the week end. Went back this morning and worked it up and down till it was free. I drilled some holes in rocks to check things out and all worked as it was supposed to. Texted the owner and let him know the machine would drill rock again and to make sure and let me know when someone was going to run the machine so I could show them the level checks to make and how the controls worked. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't.