Suggestions on rough starting? 345BL

[Jeremy Whittaker]

I've got my 1998 345BL it's old but it works. However, when I start it up in the mornings (65 degrees or so) it seems to struggle but always starts. Here is a video.

It hasn't been super cold but I'm worried as winter comes it may not start up or if it sits over the winter I may have problems early next year.

It has an ether container, I haven't messed with it at all, is this something I should research and figure out how to get working? My buttons on the inside are all old and beat up so I I'm not sure if it's even still connected.

Just looking for some feedback before this becomes a bigger issue. Thanks!

 

[Nige]

Have you covered all the basics of the fuel system servicing.? Filters, draining water & sediment, fuel lines blown out, no leaks in lines sucking air, etc, etc.?

I don't recall if you ever got an O&M Manual for it. If not you really ought to get one.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Have you covered all the basics of the fuel system servicing.? Filters, draining water & sediment, fuel lines blown out, no leaks in lines sucking air, etc, etc.?

Before I started using it I replaced the filters and the water & sediment container entirely ( i can check this now that I've been using it)

I wasn't familiar with these other steps like fuels lines blown out, lines sucking air etc, etc. Is this a specific type of service that I can have done? Now that my excavator is up north it's in a more rural area so there are no Cat dealers nearby. What service would I request from them to have them send up someone mobile to perform this service?

 

[Nige]

I replaced the filters and the water & sediment container entirely ( i can check this now that I've been using it)

How long since you checked..? Are you putting clean fuel in the tank.?

This is the reason why I asked you did you have an O&M Manual. There is a lost of information in that document. For example have you opened the drain valve to check for water/sediment in the fuel tank.?

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

I've only run it a handful of times since I replaced the water/sediment tank. I'm not sure how fast this fills up but I haven't since checked it.

I'm not sure what you mean by clean fuel, I get diesel from the local gas station. I assume it's clean.

I think I do have the manual. I'll have to search for it.

 

[Nige]

I think I do have the manual. I'll have to search for it.

First thing to look for is the procedure to drain water and sediment from the fuel tank and whule you're at it look at the "Maintenance Interval Schedule" for the recommendation of how frequently you are supposed to do that. The answer might come as a surprise to you. Based on your geographic location I suspect that large day/night ambient temperature swings could cause condensation inside the fuel tank to be a problem unless you keep the tank 100% full all the time. That condensation will settle in the bottom of the fuel tank and will eventually fetch up in the strainer or the main fuel filter unless you prevent that by checking the tank drain outlet for the presence of water.

I'm not sure what you mean by clean fuel, I get diesel from the local gas station. I assume it's clean.

I was more referring to the condition of the containers you use to purchase and transport the fuel from the gas station to your machine, along with whatever funnels, etc, that you use to get it into the tank not being contaminated with dirt, etc.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

First thing to look for is the procedure to drain water and sediment from the fuel tank and whule you're at it look at the "Maintenance Interval Schedule" for the recommendation of how frequently you are supposed to do that. The answer might come as a surprise to you. Based on your geographic location I suspect that large day/night ambient temperature swings could cause condensation inside the fuel tank to be a problem unless you keep the tank 100% full all the time. That condensation will settle in the bottom of the fuel tank and will eventually fetch up in the strainer or the main fuel filter unless you prevent that by checking the tank drain outlet for the presence of water.

I was more referring to the condition of the containers you use to purchase and transport the fuel from the gas station to your machine, along with whatever funnels, etc, that you use to get it into the tank not being contaminated with dirt, etc.

Oh I use this 50 gallon plastic gas tank with a pump. I assume it is very clean. It was new and I've never put anything in it but diesel gas.

 

[heymccall]

Alright...below 32°F, the ether injection is needed. Above 32°F, it shouldn't be needed.
Have you actually worked the machine after changing the filter(s). The air from change out remains until it has been throttled up and loaded a bit.

When you swapped the water separator bowl, was the drain plug thumbwheel flush to the bowl's boss?

I had quite a few of that series that would suck air, due to the drain plug swelling and not allowing full closure.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Alright...below 32°F, the ether injection is needed. Above 32°F, it shouldn't be needed.
Have you actually worked the machine after changing the filter(s). The air from change out remains until it has been throttled up and loaded a bit.

When you swapped the water separator bowl, was the drain plug thumbwheel flush to the bowl's boss?

I had quite a few of that series that would suck air, due to the drain plug swelling and not allowing full closure.

I'm not sure if this is relevant but it starts perfectly after the first start. Meaning I can turn it on and off multiple times throughout the day. This video that I posted is only when it has sat for a week or two.

I'm not really sure about the water separator bowl. In all honesty, I can't even remember how I swapped it out. I will check this the next time I'm up there.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Alright...below 32°F, the ether injection is needed. Above 32°F, it shouldn't be needed.
Have you actually worked the machine after changing the filter(s). The air from change out remains until it has been throttled up and loaded a bit.

When you swapped the water separator bowl, was the drain plug thumbwheel flush to the bowl's boss?

I had quite a few of that series that would suck air, due to the drain plug swelling and not allowing full closure.

Also, I just want to confirm something. The ether is only necessary when you're operating under 32F? I never plan on running it or working at that temp so that probably isn't an issue. I just want to make sure I understand when that should be needed.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Also, I just want to confirm something. The ether is only necessary when you're operating under 32F? I never plan on running it or working at that temp so that probably isn't an issue. I just want to make sure I understand when that should be needed.

Just found this in the manual and answered my own question.

 

[heymccall]

I had two of these. It's a stretch to remember everything, but, I also had to update a fuel system check valve.

Can you operate the hand primer several times, and then try starting?

If it starts better, the check valve is suspect. #11 on drawing. Part will have number stamped on hex head.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

I had two of these. It's a stretch to remember everything, but, I also had to update a fuel system check valve.

Can you operate the hand primer several times, and then try starting?

If it starts better, the check valve is suspect. #11 on drawing. Part will have number stamped on hex head.

View attachment 298128View attachment 298129View attachment 298130

Appreciate it. I'll try to hand-prime it next time then start it and see what the result is.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

Here is the original picture before I replaced this. It looks like it may have been neglected.


I remember having a hell of a time separting the filter from the machine. You can't tell from this pic below but I think I had to destroy the metal on the filter just to remove it.


Lots of sludge and stuff in there.

I put the new one on but honestly haven't looked at it since I've ran the machine. I've probably got 50 hours on it if I had to guess. I really haven't ran it a ton.


If I'm understanding this correctly I put a hose on the bottom of this turn it counterclockwise and a bunch of water/gas will run into a container that I just simply dispose of?

 

[heymccall]

IIRC, there should be no gap between thumbwheel and boss of bowl. I've had issues where I've seen air bubble in the bowl, when boom is raised and stalled, creating maximum fuel usage. At the time, the drain plug wasn't available and I had to replace the bowl assembly.

 

[Delmer]

The bowl is clear so you can see the water level if there is any. Drain it, into a container, or with a tube, or just onto the ground, or your hand. A glass jar helps you see exactly what you're draining, cleaner than draining it onto your hand.

If it starts better overnight, than it does after a couple weeks with a charged battery, then that's air getting where it shouldn't. Even if it doesn't, that won't rule out air, the air might leak overnight, or it might leak more after a week. They'll always start better warm from running than cold.

 

[heymccall]

I think my memory is off. Drain plug has air gap under thumbwheel when closed, as the seal is on top of stem.
It's the later style that gave issues, like on my 345C.

 

[skyking1]

Nige brought up the tank sump.
That is your first line of defense on water contamination. Waiting 50 hours and not looking at the new separator bowl is not doing yourself any favors, and you need to sump the tank into a clean white bucket and look at what comes out. You can be bringing clean fuel from the station OK, but that tank can have a load of crap in it that will take some time to purge out.
It may be perfectly clean but you need to confirm that periodically.

 

[Nige]

Here is the original picture before I replaced this. It looks like it may have been neglected.

View attachment 298131
I remember having a hell of a time separting the filter from the machine. You can't tell from this pic below but I think I had to destroy the metal on the filter just to remove it.

View attachment 298132
Lots of sludge and stuff in there.

I put the new one on but honestly haven't looked at it since I've ran the machine. I've probably got 50 hours on it if I had to guess. I really haven't ran it a ton.

View attachment 298133
If I'm understanding this correctly I put a hose on the bottom of this turn it counterclockwise and a bunch of water/gas will run into a container that I just simply dispose of?

And where exactly do you think all that cr@p in the water separator bowl that you removed initially came from.? The fairies didn't magically put it there. Prevention/reduction of contamination in a fuel system is pretty simple but just needs a bit of application.

Make sure containers used for diesel fuel are only used for that purpose and are kept clean both inside & out. The same applies to any transfer pumps/piping/funnels that are used to fill the machine tank from said containers.

Keep the machine tank as full as possible to reduce internal condensation. Topping off the fuel after shutting the machine down is a good idea if it is feasible. The less space there is for air above the fuel in the tank the condensation there will be. Remember that hot fuel returns back to the tank from the engine so keeping the tank full also helps to minimize the temperature rise above ambient of the fuel inside it.

Even the actions above will not completely prevent condensation which will eventually result in internal corrosion & rust flakes inside the tank. Drain the fuel tank sump on a regular basis. In the case of your infrequent usage probably every time you use the machine would be a good idea. If you have never drained the tank sump since the excavator came into your ownership IMHO that should be your #1 priority task at this point.

Just like you would check the engfine oil level, make inspection of the water separator bowl part of your pre-operational checks every time you go to fire up the machine. You will soon get a good idea of how much water the fuel system is making. As HMC pointed out, make sure that the separator bowl drain valve is correctly closed otherwise air could potentially enter the fuel system at that point.

 

[Jeremy Whittaker]

And where exactly do you think all that cr@p in the water separator bowl that you removed initially came from.? The fairies didn't magically put it there. Prevention/reduction of contamination in a fuel system is pretty simple but just needs a bit of application.

Make sure containers used for diesel fuel are only used for that purpose and are kept clean both inside & out. The same applies to any transfer pumps/piping/funnels that are used to fill the machine tank from said containers.

Yea, this is from prior to me owning it. The tank I bought was brand new. So I don't think I'm putting any new contamination in it - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BL78RDVH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Keep the machine tank as full as possible to reduce internal condensation. Topping off the fuel after shutting the machine down is a good idea if it is feasible. The less space there is for air above the fuel in the tank the condensation there will be. Remember that hot fuel returns back to the tank from the engine so keeping the tank full also helps to minimize the temperature rise above ambient of the fuel inside it.

I didn't realize this. I will start topping it off from now on.

Even the actions above will not completely prevent condensation which will eventually result in internal corrosion & rust flakes inside the tank. Drain the fuel tank sump on a regular basis. In the case of your infrequent usage probably every time you use the machine would be a good idea. If you have never drained the tank sump since the excavator came into your ownership IMHO that should be your #1 priority task at this point.

Just like you would check the engfine oil level, make inspection of the water separator bowl part of your pre-operational checks every time you go to fire up the machine. You will soon get a good idea of how much water the fuel system is making. As HMC pointed out, make sure that the separator bowl drain valve is correctly closed otherwise air could potentially enter the fuel system at that point.

I don't see anything in the manual on draining the fuel tank sump on a regular basis. I'm not a mechanic so I'm honestly not sure what this means. Can you clarify where it's located and how I go about draining it?