For the Septic Folks

[CBryantCo]

Kind of hoping to round up a few septic folks and kick things around. I know there are tons of differences in locations and such but we all have "$*it" in common.
Post up and speak up..

I am 2nd generation septic guy. Grew up around installs and drainage/ grading work almost exclusively homeowner or residential. Real estate industry drives our work as sales require repairs as opposed to homeowners just squeaking by pumping 2 or 3x a year as a band-aid.
We Started Pumping in 99 as an expansion of our services and been moving forward since,. We have 2500 gal, 4500 gal and a 5300 gal trucks that pump and a variety of machines
Located in CT... I know everyone thinks we are elbows to A**holes here but that's really not the case, lots of room and not much public sewer outside the "urban areas".

Just a few to get going
Anyone heading to Indy soon?
Effluent filters? Love em or hate em??
Risers??? To grade or keep covers buried??
Favorite products or suppliers or manufacturers???
Gripes about "things"

Spread the wealth and the info...

I know everyone likes pics so I'll try and throw some in

 

[RonG]

Get some pics up,love to be reminded of the old days and it helps me keep my "hand" in it.How about those brown trout?Ron G

 

[Shimmy1]

Brown-Wilbert I feel makes the best tanks. They deliver and set for free up to 75 miles. We prefer pumped effluent systems. We feel the dosing systems work more efficiently and last longer. That being said, the riser for the pump chamber has to be above ground, but we set the other risers a few inches below ground. We also install a double "y" in the line right before the inlet to tank. Those 4" risers we leave right at ground level.

 

[Dickjr.]

I hate any type of effluent filter. The county to my east requires one on every tank that's set. Our county requires them on anything shallower than 16". I spoke with our local environmentalist about the consumers not servicing these filters. They don't and won't. We can't enforce service contracts either. One thing we worked out was using a 1500 gallon 2 compartment tank in place of the filter, unless the daily flow is to great , but this cover 3 and 4 bedroom homes. It serves the same purpose as far as keeping the solids out of the lines. The other thing they do here at times is separate the clothes washer. Requires a D box and 50' x 4' lateral trench. I'm not big on those , because I have had to go back and clean 15 gallons of lent out of the d box and jet the lateral. Around here there are several hillside systems which keep the first line full all the time, then spill to second if it fills then spill to the third and so on. I prefer equal flow where as the whole system gets a dose versus keeping the first line maxed out all the time. Also we do lagoon systems , you know the people really love those. The only good thing about them , if you have enough land and can get it away from the house they are bullet proof. They are ugly. We have several precast guys , one in each of the surrounding counties. The state inspects the molds and the steel wire the put in once a year. Most tanks here are 1000 gallon. Personally I'm a riser up person because I'm the one who has to get back in it.

 

[CBryantCo]

A Tank with risers


A plastic tank


A nasty lift station for a golf course

 

[wrc]

How many of you all use chambers? I know I love them. When I see my competition putting them in I go back by that house with a business card and tell the land owners to call me in 3 to 5 years when that system fails. Up here in my neck of the woods they just won't work. A lot of contractors really pushed them for a long time. Now everyone hates them except for the home owners. Everyone wants that system. When I get calls to install them I simply refuse and offer to bid pipe and gravel.

 

[grandpa]

Yu-p.... chambers have went by the wayside here too.... back to the proven pipe/gravel install.

 

[Dickjr.]

We have to go with what the health department specs. Most chamber jobs I have seen that failed were not properly backfilled or had traffic on them. Since we had this problem the HD has went away from chambers back to rock systems. Google the Lexington Castle , it has over 1200 feet of chambers they supposedly installed a line then backfilled it with the hoe side as to not compact it. I have had decent luck with them installed shallow with 6 to 8 inches of good loamy topsoil cover. Last year I started using a chamber that had a leg in the center those work ok. All that being said I would rather have a rock lateral at my house.

 

[Shimmy1]

I believe that rock beds are the best. That being said, our ground most of the time does not allow us the depth required. We have had excellent luck with the gravelless pipe. For those who don't know, it's 10" corrugated plastic pipe with holes at 4 and 8 o'clock. It has a permeable geotextile membrane around it. We can dig as shallow as a 6" trench, and haul light, sandy topsoil over the top for a 1' of cover. Blend it into the terrain. It sometimes resembles a mound, but a third the price. We insist on using drop boxes, and we will not install a gravity leach field. All are dosed, set the pump to pump around 150 gallons per dose, or whatever the estimated daily use is. Our code has 110' per bedroom for it's base size design. We have systems like this in service for going on 20 yrs, some have yet to replace the pump.

 

[Dickjr.]

Shimmy , we had a brief runoff gravelless pipe here. We have a lot of waxy clay , the kind you push a blade with a dozer and back up , it stays the shape of the blade. My dad and I put in several gravelless systems. Some failed as soon as 2 years. What happened was that waxy chewing gum soil would settle and seal the pipe off. The people looked at us as the installer , but the HD specs what you put in , type of line , size of tank , how much line and so on. The bad thing is the consumer looked at us , all we did was put in specified material and it passed inspection. I liked it , ours was 8" and normally went in 14" deep , you could put one in complete tank and all in a day. Functional no. We do a lot of lagoons , I dug one today. 600' per bedroom so a 2 bedroom would be 1200' and that's water surface area. 6 1/2 feet deep and has an overflow at 4 1/2 feet that discharges into a short lateral normally 15' of chambers. The overflow is only to discharge underground to keep division of water out of the picture , I can not see it being functional at all. The pond also has a diversion ditch to keep surface water out. They do not stink either , the heavy stuff goes toward the bottom and the top 2 feet is pretty much like pond water.

 

[wrc]

I hear lots of great things about time dose systems where they are used. We do not use them here and the health dept leaves the system type and design to the contractor here. We do 200 feet per bed room anything over 3 beds. Minimum system is 600 feet 3 feet wide. With a single compartment concrete tank. 1000 gal for 1 or 2 bed. 1500 for 3 or 4 bedrooms. And 2000 gal anything over 4 bed rooms. I am wanting someone up this way to use the new geo flow stuff. Ya know them packing peanuts inside chicken wire.

 

[Shimmy1]

Shimmy , we had a brief runoff gravelless pipe here. We have a lot of waxy clay , the kind you push a blade with a dozer and back up , it stays the shape of the blade. My dad and I put in several gravelless systems. Some failed as soon as 2 years. What happened was that waxy chewing gum soil would settle and seal the pipe off. The people looked at us as the installer , but the HD specs what you put in , type of line , size of tank , how much line and so on. The bad thing is the consumer looked at us , all we did was put in specified material and it passed inspection. I liked it , ours was 8" and normally went in 14" deep , you could put one in complete tank and all in a day. Functional no. We do a lot of lagoons , I dug one today. 600' per bedroom so a 2 bedroom would be 1200' and that's water surface area. 6 1/2 feet deep and has an overflow at 4 1/2 feet that discharges into a short lateral normally 15' of chambers. The overflow is only to discharge underground to keep division of water out of the picture , I can not see it being functional at all. The pond also has a diversion ditch to keep surface water out. They do not stink either , the heavy stuff goes toward the bottom and the top 2 feet is pretty much like pond water.

So, not at all trying to pick anything apart, but were percolation tests ever done? And, how many feet per bedroom? There are guys here that won't go near gravelless, too. I was very fussy with the trench. Dug to grade with hoe, no walking in ditch allowed at all. If soil seemed sticky, we would rake the sidewalls. To put pipe together, I toss pipe in, step into ditch either side of pipe, put pipe together, fiddle with fabric ends. I always pull the fabric tight, work the end of the next fabric back over the previous pipe. Not to get to long winded here, but I believe that making sure the fabric is taut is important. Keeps the corrugations open for the water to be able to collect. Then, dirt was cast back over pipe as you dug the next setting. When finished, ABSOLUTELY NO DRIVING ON DITCH!! Not even with tracks. And customer was instructed as well nothing bigger than a lawn tractor on the system.. I know none of this really matters, but I also believe installation plays a huge part in reliability. Like I said in the beginning, I'm not trying to nit-pick anybody's work, just telling how we did it.

 

[Dickjr.]

Understood , the ditches were on grade we assembled the pipe on top of the ground and rolled it into the ditch. Perc test was done by HD. I'm not sure about your soil type , I think it would be black loamy almost silt like down to 30" or so. When we remove the sod that's about the extent of our good soil. Then its waxy clay. I think the engineers pushed the gravelless on the state to try or some buddy buddy type thing. When we do a clay site now , if they want conventional lines we add at least half again the amount of lateral and up size the tank. Standards here are 1000 gallon up to 3 bedrooms , 1250 up to 5 bedrooms over that its either 1500 or two 1000s. 90 feet per bedroom. We do have certain areas with good topsoil , but it is a rarity. I did one last week , dug tank hole and didn't get nasty until about 40". I don't like doing any septic job wet , but if its for a builder they don't care they want it in and if you don't do it they will call some one who will. Shimmy any discussion like this is welcomed , I am open to learning any thing and seems like time to time I pick up a new trick. Its cut throat around here. If it was more than enough to go around people would be too busy to jump on or take on another persons job.

 

[Shimmy1]

Do you ever build mounds? Around here, you don't even strip the topsoil or sod. Just tear it up as deep as you can with the ripper, then start dumping the sand. We usually scratch it up a few feet bigger all the way around so when the topsoil cap goes on it is sure to seal up. We mound up the sand, then dig the trench out of the center for the rock. The rock bed is usually 6-10 feet wide. Just sprinkle sand out on side slopes. We prefer to use straw to cover everything, feel it breathes better. Most of the mounds I built were around 60-80' wide and 120-150' long, and 2-3' high when finished.

 

[Dickjr.]

Never done a mound system. We have talked about them while getting our CE credits. I have seen the peat chambers. Those are expensive , I think 8 or up to 10 grand per bedroom. I bet the sand in those mounds gets pricey. Sand here is 35$ per ton delivered, or 30 per picked up. Any chance I can , I shy away from pumps in septic systems. When I have to use a pump I always call zoeller and tell them head pressure , distance etc and they size the pump and line. Cheap insurance and they stand behind the warranty. We do fill n wait systems , set a tank with alarm and have it pumped while an area roughly 4000 sq feet is excavated and filled with topsoil about 42" deep. These cost up to 20 grand for the complete job. We have also installed rock trenches 12" deep fill with 12" of rock then haul in or shave up enough topsoil to cover with 14" to settle to 12". I've been a licensed installer since 1992, I have seen about everything there is around here. Things seem a lot different up North. We have done wetland cells , but everyone including the HD has went away from those unless its all that can be done.

 

[Shimmy1]

Zoeller. Best pumps I have found as well. Have had good luck with Goulds as well. The plastic and stainless ones.

 

[Brad SEIN]

It is always interesting to hear the differences in systems for different areas. "Here"the trend has been to chambers, and now to Presby and ADS Geo Flow systems. Very few pipe and stone systems any more. Chambers have been used here for close to twenty years and I have never seen them fail. I have seen improperly installed systems fail, but that can be with any type of system.

I work in 5 different counties and each has a different approach. All have to have boring done by a licensed soil scientist. The county I live in, we have to submit a completed design map with all specs, depths and tolerances. This is based on the specs laid out by HD. In another county they completely design the system and lay it out for you. In a couple others its a matter of calling and going over the system and you can get the permit. Some check everything twice, others come out and lean on the truck and shoot the breeze, then head down the road. In my county and one other it can take over 2 hours to get an installation inspected, with a return trip usually required. I am really for this as it puts everbody on the same level of quality.

That being said, the newer levels of scrutiny have run a lot of the older contractors out. I don't necessarily persue septic jobs and still do 6 to 12 a year. Almost 90% of what I do is new construction installs that we are doing the site work on as well. I probably turn a dozen or more repair systems away a year. Any more there is a lot of hassle getting everything lined up, planned, permitted, and dealing with BOH departments to hassle with repairs. I think the seasonality of the work keeps smaller contractors from being in it for a long time.

As far as systems go I have moved to the ADS geo flows for the bulk of my installs. I don't know how widely approved these systems are in other states, but they serve a real good purpose for us here in Indiana. the system is basically a glorified sand mound, using "special" 10" pipe that has a geo wrap around it. This pipe is placed on top of 6" or 12" of sand, and bedded to 6" over with sand. Then the field is capped with topsoil. These systems are supposed to process the effluent as well as disperse it. They require venting so they remain aerobic. My oldest system is 6 years out now and none of them have had any issues, and we have over 25 of them in. I know that's not a lot of systems and definitely not a long time, but a couple of them have been worked hard and put in some really tough spots. One of the biggest advantages is the small footprint. Typical 3 bedroom systems can fit in a 25'x75' area. The field can also be divided up to fit even smaller spots.
As a disclaimer I have great access to sand, runs about $4 per ton plus trucking, so that makes them work here.

The biggest factors I have seen in any systems success are proper soil borings, and installing when it's dry. All counties I work in wont even let you think about starting systems until late May. Even then if you can't pass plasticity test at your installation depth its a no go. We usually try to do them in late summer, early fall. If we have to we will shallow them up to find dry ground if the circumstances allow.

Sorry for the rambling, interesting topic

 

[Dickjr.]

Brad , by geo flow do you mean 10" pipe with the outer sock or drip irrigation? I could see the 10" geo flow pipe working with the soil conditions in SE Indiana. I do a fair amount of septic work , one thing about repairs normally it leads to a new system. 1 out of 5 can be repaired , if I feel its worth a repair then I recommend that. I going to look for a pic I have and post it on here of our good quality soil. I had a chance to work for Northern Bell in Indianapolis , I asked the owner of the company about types of excavation. He told me great , good soils until it turns to solid rock and its hard.

 

[Brad SEIN]

Its the 10" wrapped pipe. Most of the soils I work in are similar to yours with very little topsoil and fragipan limiting layers. If I go north to do anything, into the Wisconsian glacial soils its a totally different world. You can use any system and they will work fine. That has been my reasoning for the Geo Flows. They can be installed shallow, and have a good footprint to allow percolation in our tight silt clay loams.

I do agree, most repairs are replacements. Another reason for the geo flows. We have installed some in little towns on lots so small there was chance for any other type of system. And there are lots of unincorporated little towns with no sewer system, and almost all the house have no real septic systems.

I will try to post pics, new at this so hopefully it works.

 

[450smrider]

Those look so close to each other no minimum center to center? Op where in ct are you located, it's amazing how differently things are done around the country