Complexity is Unreliable

[cherokee101]

I am not getting younger. Though I don't have money to blow I have been thinking of upgrading some of my old equipment. Specifically my Schaeff SKL 831 loader with the mighty Perkins Parma engine and my uber reliable Komatsu PC-40 that has done things no small excavator should do. I am leery though because of all the electronics on the newer machines. Electronic and electrical troubles that can render a solid machine into a boat anchor. I doubt seriously they would last even as long as I do without serious problems. My machines stay in the barn when not in use and the cats protect them from vermin and still I chase gremlins on things like the JCB 7 contact points safety interlock for starting the 210S. Is trading old and worn for new fangled with lots of bells and whistles I don't think I need or will ever use really a step up or down?

The 210S gets new hoses, a bushing or two and a cylinder pack here and there. The old deep throw Perkins continues to reach down to the bottom of the barrel and lug away so long as I don't lock the emergency brake and the torque converter gets the right old Ford blue ATF. Nothing I have beats it for mobility, burying dead cows, cleaning out water crossings on the creeks, cleaning ditches and general heaving things around.

I am looking at Case 331F and a 57 or 80 size hoe. Also considering the equivalent in Bobcat, JCB, Volvo, New Holland and Wacker offerings.

Experiences of others I read are as I expect, chasing lots of gremlins in the electrical / electronics system. I have a friend that buys new equipment regularly to prevent repairs and downtime. His tactic seems to be working less and costing more since he can't fix a thing himself. He has been searching in vain for older equipment in good shape instead of new. Two events have driven him this way. One was a $30,000 wiring harness for the "space age" experience Cat grader and the other was $35,000 in repairs and a tech to come from somewhere for JD to reburn his computer with an after market fix to a screw up JD won't own up to. Tractor runs perfectly now. That computer fix was $5K after JD hit him for $30K for no solution.

What happens to this new fangled equipment with lots of junk on it you mostly don't ever use or the engines that now more closely resemble a Formula I or Prat and Whitney F100 engine in complexity when it is not fixable way before the time the iron wears out?

The only reason I can think of for computer based load management is the too small engines in some stuff and bad operators. Ditto for a computer that has load settings for different attachments. What is there to run that requires so many load management changes? Most used equipment I see has never had anything hooked up to the auxiliary hydraulics or the multi-pin connector anyway. The Wacker-Neuson whell loaders are loaded with hydraulics that never get used as they are eaten up loading fertilizer. Yeah, you really need all the bells and whistles to shovel salt don't you? How about compost and cow **** in a dirt yard?

I may just keep my old stuff and argue with it until one of us dies.

Your thoughts?

 

[Simon C]

Old is okay until it is down for a small part that you spend 40 hours trying to find with no success, or when you can't find despite having the willingness to pay any help to fix something above your knowledge. Always a tough decision.
Simon C

 

[cherokee101]

Steel I can usually find or make or make do. I can touch it, torch it, weld it, machine it. Electronics are another thing. Especially when they have no failsafe provision and you can't defeat them by wiring around. The seven contact point safety interlock on the JCB was easily fixed by running a wire from the starter switch to the starter solenoid Fixed!

 

[Simon C]

By passing the safety system is good until someone who doesn't know hurts or kills someone else standing in the way. Seen too many bypassed close calls in my life to do other than to get into a shop.
If you are alone all the time, you may get away with, but not recommended if multiple people use or are around.
Simon C

 

[Tones]

2 things that stand out in your op. First is your age. Question, are you happy to saddle yourself with dept? Second, with TLC will your equipment last until your retirement?
IMHO, if the answer to the 2nd question is yes then keep it and work it. Sure it may not sell for a lot when it time but it can earn the same rates as a new machine without the headache of servicing dept or fixing phantom problems. For me that's a huge plus for keeping.

 

[Joe H]

Somewhere here that is a tale of woe from a guy who owns a relatively new Case backhoe (I think) that needs an brain for the transmission.

This brain is about $8,000 as I recall and not available anywhere on the planet.

So his hoe sits dead for 2 years. Found the thread May of 2024

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/2008-case-580-smii-military-backhoe-loader-power-shift-module.109245/#post-1263240

Transmission control module, not available so it's dead.

Your old junk keeps on keepin on, so why replace it?

Joe H

 

[cherokee101]

By passing the safety system is good until someone who doesn't know hurts or kills someone else standing in the way. Seen too many bypassed close calls in my life to do other than to get into a shop.
If you are alone all the time, you may get away with, but not recommended if multiple people use or are around.
Simon C

Osha don't live here. Neither does Karen. Somehow I've managed to not kill or injure myself in the last 7 decades without help.

 

[cherokee101]

THAT is the horror story I think about, a dead brain that can't be replaced, and why I'll probably just keep what I've got and maybe spring for a hystat pump and motor repair, maybe buy that older model of trackoe and keep the little Komatsu. I've told my son just to have an auction when I die since he wants none of it or the farm anyway.

Who dreams up this insanity anyway? It sure isn't anyone who is thinking very much or maybe they are, just thinking about all that money they'll make.

 

[cherokee101]

I'm getting old enough, bold enough or senile enough to believe I can't take it with me and I'm getting tired of wrenching. I enjoy operating a whole lot more! Crawling around under stuff is getting to be less of a good option. I had my helper tie a rope on my legs so he could pull me out from under the dozer when I took the bash plate off of it to get to the bottom of the engine and clean out all the grease, sticks and crap. Even running up on railroad ties isn't helping like it once did.

 

[cherokee101]

SO, different question to anyone who is still listening or interested. Which compact equipment maker has the simplest machine? The one without the computer controlled transmission or load controller or remote monitoring system or key pad combination locks and so forth? Who makes the simplest machines that get the job done?

Yanmar is still using the old Schaeff and Terex design for wheel loaders and their instruments are simple like steam gauges instead of digital stuff. I lean to that.

I would not touch a new JD anything if for no other reason but principles. Wacker looks like a short circuit looking for a place to happen as do most others. I noticed one excavator that helpfully idles down after 3 seconds of inactivity and shuts off after another timer. What happens if the timer goes out or gets lost in the count down? What if I want to keep the engine at a fast idle to listen to it for a problem or just to keep warm?

 

[MG84]

SO, different question to anyone who is still listening or interested. Which compact equipment maker has the simplest machine? The one without the computer controlled transmission or load controller or remote monitoring system or key pad combination locks and so forth? Who makes the simplest machines that get the job done?

Yanmar is still using the old Schaeff and Terex design for wheel loaders and their instruments are simple like steam gauges instead of digital stuff. I lean to that.

I would not touch a new JD anything if for no other reason but principles. Wacker looks like a short circuit looking for a place to happen as do most others. I noticed one excavator that helpfully idles down after 3 seconds of inactivity and shuts off after another timer. What happens if the timer goes out or gets lost in the count down? What if I want to keep the engine at a fast idle to listen to it for a problem or just to keep warm?

Kubota or Takeuchi for the compact equipment, most are still hydraulic over hydraulic on the controls and simple in comparison to Cat, JD etc. I too share your sentiment on the new equipment, I own a new Kubota CTL and 5 ton mini ex but I keep my old 1980s-1990s equipment in good working order on standby. So far the new stuff has been reliable, but I’m not willing to put all my eggs in that basket. Same with autos, my main pickup is a 2019 but the ol ‘93 F250 with the 7.3IDI is still on duty.

In your situation unless you are putting hundreds of hours each year on the equipment I would either keep what you have, or replace it with ‘newer’ old equipment. Now if you are running it daily for a business then at some point new equipment becomes a necessary evil.

 

[cherokee101]

Kubota or Takeuchi for the compact equipment, most are still hydraulic over hydraulic on the controls and simple in comparison to Cat, JD etc. I too share your sentiment on the new equipment, I own a new Kubota CTL and 5 ton mini ex but I keep my old 1980s-1990s equipment in good working order on standby. So far the new stuff has been reliable, but I’m not willing to put all my eggs in that basket. Same with autos, my main pickup is a 2019 but the ol ‘93 F250 with the 7.3IDI is still on duty.

In your situation unless you are putting hundreds of hours each year on the equipment I would either keep what you have, or replace it with ‘newer’ old equipment. Now if you are running it daily for a business then at some point new equipment becomes a necessary evil.

Most things are really wants that are confused for needs. For most of 70 years I have managed to keep the two categories distinct seldom letting want take over. I drive a 20 year-old Dodge and the wife drives a car nearly that old. We seldom have ever bought new vehicles and I still have my first truck and still feel guilty for buying it new when I was 17. Threw a lost of hay and worked a lot of overtime to pay that debt off in two years. Never borrowed money for a vehicle again.

I don't need to make a living with my equipment. It is for my use and pleasure only now. I am fortunate to still have my health and I want to enjoy that gift as long and as much as I can.

 

[Welder Dave]

You need to look for equipment built in the 90's (80's maybe) would be my best guess. Some needed safety equipment but not a bunch of electronics. Anything with electronics back then seemed to have a lot of teething pains. I've got a 94 skid steer that is about as basic as you can get. It has a good seat bar which is a very nice feature. Some other brands were getting into electronic monitors and I've read of a bunch of issues with the early versions. However I've read of a lot of issues with the new electronics too.

 

[aighead]

I'm only a home hobby user and I only have a backhoe but I'm really put off by electronics and DEF. Both are enough to keep me from wanting anything much newer. If I had to go that route I'd likely rent something, so I could give it back. My 2003 New Holland is quite simple, no DEF, and no babysitting electronics.

 

[HarleyHappy]

Just think, you could be operating along and your machine says it’s time to stop and do a derate or what ever. Putting bat **** or guano in a machine to keep it working sounds insane.
My brother is an electronics geek and has always been, so good to him.
When I bought my backhoe, we were building a new house and being I was out of work, I wanted to do the 880’ driveway and the site work.
I purposefully shopped for a backhoe, with no electronic junk.
Only crap on it is lights, horn and a fuel solenoid.
Was looking for a skid steer and bought an old clammer Scat Trak to fix up.
I used to run equipment in my 20’s and 30’s and I remember no less than 10 times not being to able to run equipment because of the GD brain decided to take a crap.
One time a 450 mile road trip to VT and the Damn Cat RR350 decided it didn’t want to drive off the low bed.
I was able to operate my share of new equipment and it is awesome, when it runs.
I will admit, a new machine that is so tight and quiet and smooth to run, just feels beautiful. An absolute pleasure to run and almost feels like fun, while making money.
I want my equipment to be like my dog.
Run when I want it to and talk back.
Lol

 

[aighead]

I forgot about the quiet part. The backhoe I rented, in probably 2018, needed DEF but was significantly quieter than mine.

 

[materthegreater]

One time a 450 mile road trip to VT...

You must have been using MapQuest to take 450 miles to get from NH to VT...

 

[cherokee101]

You must have been using MapQuest to take 450 miles to get from NH to VT...

Ah yes. Mapquest, Google Maps and all that convenience. I can't remember who it was told me, and I was skeptical of it, that one young fellow was using the navigation system to drive to work and back home from Fort Smith to somewhere towards Fayetville, he used the navigation system in his car every time??? You gotta be kidding.

I worked drilling rigs all over the place for most of 42 years and never once used a navigation system. Just a county road map or directions. One common one was to go west of Weatherford to the blinking light, turn left or right and then a series of left and right turns on county roads, look right or left and north or south into. That was all we got.

After looking all the way up to 12 ton units I've about decided the 6 or 7 ton is all I really need. They seem to get stingy on power in many of the the 8 tonners for some reason. Don't understand that.

To all in this thread, thank you for your contributions. You confirm my thoughts but I'm still tempted by the bright and shiny new things. Maybe I should paint? I hate painting.

 

[HarleyHappy]

That was round trip, as I had to drag it off the low bed with a 988.
Had to wait for Cat to come out and put a new ECM in it.
That was a disaster of a job.

 

[cherokee101]

I'm only a home hobby user and I only have a backhoe but I'm really put off by electronics and DEF. Both are enough to keep me from wanting anything much newer. If I had to go that route I'd likely rent something, so I could give it back. My 2003 New Holland is quite simple, no DEF, and no babysitting electronics.

2003 is the newest I have in construction, the Dozer. The oldest is a '94 I think. The Perkins Parma is a tiny engine for the wheel loader and it is a OHV with a timing belt. Used them a lot in sailboats and the Rover car in the UK. It whirs away with all it can muster while the Hydro transmission heats up and then gets slower and slower and slower as it leaks more and more and more. Motor, pump, bypass could be just about anything. Whatever it is the machine is a pig when it gets hot. It is also from an age when auxiliary hydraulics were only for push pull of a cylinder and it just does not have enough pump to spin much of a motor.