Case 480F LL starting issue. No voltage. Fuse location?

[Dozer_Mark]

Hello tractor wizards. I recently acquired a case 480F LL, late 80's-early 90's. It's in great shape, drove it on and off the trailer. The starter solenoid wasn't working and hadn't been working for some time according to the original owner. He had a wire wrapped around the ROPS that he would take off and clamp to the solenoid wire on the starter then tap the other end to the hot wire to jump the solenoid. Worked fine for him and for me a couple times but the last time I tried to start it like that it sparked and wouldn't turn over after that. Simple, blew a fuse right? Well I can't find a single damn fuse on this whole damn tractor. Not one bus, not one spade, not one panel, not one in-line, nothing. Two relays behind the dash and that's it. What the heck did I do? When I put a multi meter on the large hot starter wire I get 12.85volts. when I put the multi meter on the small solenoid wire and turn the ignition key I get nothing. What am I missing? Are their hidden fuses on these machines somewhere? Is there one of those fuseable link wires that melts when failed? Seems like a new starter and fuse would have me going but I don't want to put money into the starter until I know how to get 12v from the ignition to the solenoid. Thanks in advance!
-Mark

 

[Coy Lancaster]

More than likely it's not the starter solenoid but it's the neutral safety switch on the shuttle.

 

[Tinkerer]

If you need the service manual send me your email address in a PM (private message).
I can send you link to my Google drive.
First check that switch that Coy posted about. If that is ok, you will have to do some voltage tracing.
Although this page from the service manual is part of the charging circuit diagnostics it shows the starting motor wiring.
Notice that #2 is a magnetic switch and #7 is a 40 amp breaker.

 

[Dozer_Mark]

If you need the service manual send me your email address in a PM (private message).
I can send you link to my Google drive.
First check that switch that Coy posted about. If that is ok, you will have to do some voltage tracing.
Although this page from the service manual is part of the charging circuit diagnostics it shows the starting motor wiring.
Notice that #2 is a magnetic switch and #7 is a 40 amp breaker.
View attachment 279092

Awesome thanks I appreciate the help. I'm going to check the neutral switch that Coy mentioned tomorrow and search for that 40 amp breaker. Haven't seen that anywhere but I'll admit I haven't been looking for an old breaker like that, although it probably would have caught my eye. I'm wondering if I fried that switch by jolting the voltage like that. If there were a fuse between I would have just blown the fuse but since there isn't, I bet I fried the switch.

 

[Dozer_Mark]

More than likely it's not the starter solenoid but it's the neutral safety switch on the shuttle.

Good call thanks, I'll check it tomorrow. I found a forum earlier that had a picture from the manual with a diagram of that switch location. Is it just a two wire safety switch? And reason I cant jump the wires and bypass that switch?

 

[stinky64]

Yes you can jump the neutral safety switch, just be sure to pay attention and make sure you're in neutral when starting so you don't get run over. If you find the other solenoid/magnetic switch #2 and it looks like the one pictured see if you have power to one of the 2 big studs, if so you should be able to jump across the big studs with a small screwdriver to engage the starter. Then you can diagnose the other issues. Same neutral warning applies.

 

[Dozer_Mark]

Yes you can jump the neutral safety switch, just be sure to pay attention and make sure you're in neutral when starting so you don't get run over. If you find the other solenoid/magnetic switch #2 and it looks like the one pictured see if you have power to one of the 2 big studs, if so you should be able to jump across the big studs with a small screwdriver to engage the starter. Then you can diagnose the other issues. Same neutral warning applies.

Finally getting around to messing with this thing again. Do you have any idea where that magnetic switch is? I have found a single fise on this thing. I did find the 10 and 15 self resetting circuit breakers on a bar behind the gauge cluster. I can't get voltage to any of the 3. This tractor must not have the 40amp starter breaker. As usual it has a huge gauge wire from the battery to the starter with no interruptions, then from the starter off the big hot terminal it has a two 6-8gauge wires, one going to the alt and one going to the ignition tumbler harness. Both of those have 12v along with the starter hot terminal but only in the off position. As soon as I switch the get to on or acc or turn all the way to start I lose voltage. When I try to jump 12v straight at the ignition tumbler harness from the bigger 12v wire (from the starter) to the wire that plugs into the part labels "ignition" the voltage immediately goes away when I touch it to ignition. Tried bypassing the neutral safety, made no difference. There's also a separate large gauge wire that goes to the starter solenoid. I can't find where the other end is but im assuming back to the ignition tumbler (even though there isn't a matching wire that plugs into the tumbler) . I can't get that solenoid wire to ever have voltage but when I run a jumper cable from the battery and tap the small starter solenoid terminal, the starter clicks...doesn't spin but clicks. I'm 90% sure the starter works fine. I bench tested it with a smaller garden tractor battery and it popped out spinning. I'm extremely confused. Does the button on the clutch disconnect lever have anything to do with starting cycle? I found the wires that go to it dangling and I think I found where they connect on the little clicker pedal by your left foot but im not 100% sure. Any help is much appreciated! This isn't a common tractor to find wire diagrams for. Can't find anything that matches.

 

[Coy Lancaster]

Good morning: I read your last post and to me it sounds like you have a ground issue. You should have voltage to your key switch on battery post at all times. When you turn key to on position then ACC and Ing. post should power up. When you turn key to start position then you should have power to St. post. If you are loosing power when you turn key to start that is an indication of a bad ground IMO. The way that the LL series machines ground is not very good, again IMO. You could take a set of jumper cables and connect from battery to engine block at starter mounting bolt and see if that helps.